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Recommissioning after Coronavirus

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by johnofwessex, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    Advance booking is the normal for most things now; Alton Towers, Warwick Castle etc etc
    Even things for adults are like that; theatre & afternoon tea as an example.
    Even the light shows at Lichfield Cathedral are book-in-advance, & you get a time slot.
     
  2. NathanP

    NathanP Member

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    It isn't name and phone number. I've been to a pub and a cafe so far this week and I've had to provide name, phone number and my full postal address. Perhaps this is another part of the problem. Different places asking for differing levels of contact details.
     
  3. AlexGWR1994

    AlexGWR1994 Member

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    Here's my footage of Lydham Manor in a class of her own on the reopening day of the Dartmouth Steam Railway. There's also an added bonus of the UK's only coal fired Paddle Steamer 'Kingswear Castle'. Hope you enjoy it.
     
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  4. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    I think it is incredibly harsh, sweeping and unfair to say railways that have decided not to open this year have not tried. The Mid Suffolk Light Railway (which I imagine, being free of Mk1s and Big Chufferitis, you must approve of) have said because of the constraints of site and rolling stock they do not think it is possible for them to run a service with adequate social distancing in place, so they're not running services. That isn't not trying. That's taking a responsible look at your facilities and your capability to adapt to the new situation, and being unafraid to make the decision to remain closed if, as a business, you cannot open and conform to the new guidelines in place for the safety of your volunteers and the general public.
    The Aln Valley Railway is another line which has said they won't be reopening yet. The only reason given is that it's very difficult to stay 2m apart on the footplate of a steam engine. Yes, that hasn't stopped other railways from opening, but there's a grey area here and it's open to the decision of each individual organisation as to how they respond to this situation. Plus, knowing what I do about the Aln Valley, I would guess they have a rather small pool of volunteers which might not be able to cope with the strain of all the extra cleaning work required of them, and taking information for track and trace. Plus (again, this is an assumption not based on any specific knowledge) I would guess they might have an old average workforce, even for a heritage railway, who might not feel able to put themselves at risk.
    The railway I'm a volunteer at (the GCRN) again has not announced a reopening date. My guess is it is something mainly to do with manpower as we don't have an excess of volunteers, although more are always welcome (shameless plug).
    All these decisions will have been made by the management who have to consider the most responsible course of action they can take at this moment in time, both for the health of the business finances and the health of the passengers and volunteers.
    So I would ask that you do not think so poorly of railways that have not started up again yet.

    In the interest of balance however (without wishing to sound like the BBC) I do agree with you in that not going to visit a heritage railway because it isn't going to be able to run in the same way that you really want it to is not an appropriate response to this situation either. I intend to make more trips to heritage railways this year than I have in recent years, because I know they need my dosh! Even if it's not exactly how I would like to experience them!
     
  5. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    I accept some of what you say but by no means the greater part of it.. If you read the list of the re-opening plans at the commencement of another thread you will see a large number of places, including narrow gauge lines, have set dates for their return to operating. Others are actively investigating arrangements. As an example, the Bluebell has decided that the East Grinstead platform is too narrow for easy separation between groups. However this is not stopping them from running as far as Kingscote. It is highly unlikely that the age profiles of paid staff and volunteers varies very much from one place to another.

    If there is a resurgence of the virus, obviously there will need to be a re-examination, but not, necessarily, an alteration of arrahgements which have been put in place.
     
  6. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Catch 22 it seems. Fade into the background in 2020 and risk losing the custom gained over a period of time - different times of course for different lines. Out of sight out of mind possibly?
    Difficult decisions have been made I am sure but what if this pandemic hits us hard again over the coming winter and another lockdown period arises? Would that force permanent closure?
    Peoples generosity in most cases has been great in helping charities stay solvent, but that will probably not be the case next year as by which time the financial chickens for the country will have come home to roost. There is still time, I believe, for a change of heart.
     
  7. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    Every railway is different. Just as some railways might be able to change the way they're doing things to still run a service (like the Bluebell example you have given), other railways (e.g. Mid Suffolk). may not feel able to. You can't use the example of the Bluebell as a reason why every railway should be able to manage. Because it's different enough to every other railway that means what works there won't necessarily work elsewhere. Age profiles may not vary but volunteer numbers (and therefore availability and ability to take on the increased workload of keeping a site COVID-secure) certainly will, as I previously pointed out. Depending on their typical clientelle railways may have decided they do not think it would be financially viable to start running now, especially if they have financial reserves to be able to survive hibernation for a bit longer before they get going again.

    You have no ability or right to say that a railway that is 'not trying' because for whatever reason they have looked at all the options and considered all the factors and decided (after a discussion process which you have not been involved in) the best and most responsible decision is to remain closed for the time being. I am a little stunned and disgusted that you evidently feel that you do. Stop painting every railway with the same brush and judging them by the same standards.

    Or perhaps you're right, perhaps we all know nothing about running a railway in comparison to you, and so you should be emailing every railway that has announced they will be remaining closed for the time being and tell them to start trying harder and run trains again. But if you do decide to continue with the appallingly arrogant attitude you seem to be demonstrating do not be surprised when people like me object.
     
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  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think you are being unfair to compare operations like GCR(N) or Aln Valley with a significantly larger operation like the Bluebell. From my involvement in non-railway volunteering, I'm extremely conscious of how important a critical mass of volunteers may be, and how significant an impact on the operation the absence of even one key individual can be, or how a lack of money can be a fundamental constraint. The age profiles may not differ, but the smaller organisation may be more affected by whether they have an "unfair" number of people with health conditions that limit how they can work. Or they simply may not have the free cash to be able to invest in necessary measures for operating in today's climate, and so think themselves better hibernating. I don't know what the GCR(N)'s fleet is like, but with a significant proportion being air conditioned Mk3s, I can instantly see some particular challenges.

    I am in the camp that believes that reopening is essential, and that all effort should be bent towards achieving a reopening. But that has to be done in a responsible way, and achieving that may simply not be possible for some operations for reasons that are beyond their direct control. Just a simple example - my church is open 7 days a week for private prayer. Achieving this seems very simple, but needed significant risk assessment work to identify what, within government and church guidance, would be "safe"; a framework of analysis that had simply never had to be thought about before. And one hurdle that I'd never have thought of before was finding volunteers to clean flat surfaces at a standard time every day. That rota - just 7 people required to do one 30 minute stint per week - took days to assemble.
     
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  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    On age profile: I think you probably need to distinguish weekend and mid-week as being subtly different. Certainly my perception on the Bluebell, but probably similar elsewhere, is that the age profile is lower at weekends, i.e. a higher proportion of younger people working; and a higher proportion of more elderly volunteers midweek. Probably not rocket science to understand why, but means the issues of re-opening weekends-only might be simpler than ultimately re-opening mid week as well.

    Tom
     
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  10. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    This is not a matter of arrogance or humility but one of survival.
     
  11. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Taking up some of the comments by 35B, it is indeed a task to find volunteers, at times, each day, to maintain the cleanliness of buildings to comply with what is necessary to protect people. It is also quite expensive. Whilst labour can be free the fittings and materials required are most certainly not. I also hope that as many railways, museums and other attractions are able to open I guess some of the high costs might be difficult for small scale operations to absorb.
    Volunteers, usually, are in the upper age group and I know that many are still reluctant to venture out or get into groups - large or small. At my church Sunday morning worship was 45% of the usual figure attending prior to lockdown. Weekday mornings, (far less people of course) have, so far, been the same as pre lockdown.
    I am not suggesting this has any relationship to how heritage railways might fare, but it does portray one part of post lockdown.
     
  12. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thoughts. I presume the General Manager, or whoever, approached the operating staff to see how many were prepared to come in and the service was adjusted accordingly.
     
  13. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    It is still arrogant to think that you know better how an organisation you have no involvement with should survive this current pandemic than the management of said organisation who have the practical knowledge of the specific requirements and constraints of that operation in all its facets. And insulting for the leadership of an organisation who may have agonised over a decision to have somebody like you declare, without knowing details behind their decision, that they are simply not trying.
     
  14. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

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    Smaller organisations perhaps have no paid staff and very little other outgoings, and can therefore afford to shutdown for extended periods with little financial loss. So, some railways perhaps have no need to try.
    Others have considerable ongoing costs regardless of whether they are operating trains or not, and therefore have much greater incentive to try and generate the income required to cover those costs.

    PS. ruddingtonrsh56, please forgive my butchering your post, but I just wanted to add to the above point.
     
  15. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Until they actually do it, no-one anywhere at present has any idea as to whether it would be worthwhile running services of this sort to generate income. However, in keeping the equipment serviceable, morale of staff going and in terms of ensuring "the name remains bright", it is vital that things happen. Looking around, this seems to be the generally held view.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  16. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    I would think the management of a railway would have a better idea than somebody like you or I who has no connection to it. If we were referring to a specific railway that was known to have poor management and decision making, perhaps I could understand your belief that you know better. But we aren't. So I can't.
    I don't disagree that many volunteers would like to get back to work. But that doesn't mean the railway should run trains again so they're volunteers can keep playing if they have assessed the situation and think the only way they can run safely is at a financial loss, especially a greater financial loss than they are experiencing in shut down. Many railways in anticipation of the lockdown made precautions to ensure the railway could be closed for a prolonged period without significant detrimental impact on equipment condition. And (I can't believe how much I am having to make this point and how hard you seem to be trying to ignore it) just because some railways have decided the best way to approach this situation is to reopen this summer or soon after, it doesn't mean it is the only right way to approach it, and it doesn't mean it is practical everywhere. But perhaps your inability / unwillingness to consider this means I'm wasting time and energy typing out these arguments.
     
  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    But no responsible leadership will embark on that course without having a view of how things can be made to happen without worsening the position. Just because something is conventional wisdom does not make it right, while each organisation and site is different from others.

    I may find it disappointing that xyz organisation is not operating; I may even believe they're missing a trick or being unduly cautious, but that does not extend to saying "they're wrong" when I don't know the detail.
     
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  18. jon5051

    jon5051 Member

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    I also wonder how fundraising appeals will hold up when other lines open. For instance, I have donated to some lines over the past few months but as lines open up will go and spend there (different lines to spread the effect where I can).

    However for the lines which don’t open, I wonder whether the donations will start to dry up, and where the income will come from to cover fixed costs. I hope not but suspect it will happen.
     
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  19. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    I can't get it through either that in a situation where no-one has any experience of at all, doing nothing is no way to run a railway.

    Enough of this stuff.
     
  20. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Sensible observations, without the benefit of those cussed rose tinted specs which leave some "all at sea". I'm engaging in this debate following a trying experience in Brighton's Churchill Square 'mall', which I couldn't avoid yesterday.

    Let's for a moment play devil's advocate .....

    Regardless of whether services are running, or even whether any staff are onsite, there are clearly unavoidable fixed overheads to be met. Up to a certain point, running services (or even bringing in the staff to prepare to do so) actually adds to that burden. Preparing any part of a complete railway to operate under the strictures dictated by C-19 does the opposite of helping that situation one little bit, so the questions surely have to be:

    1) what level of patronage might lead a line back to a minimum of 'break even' (let alone profitable opening) ?

    and/or

    2) what are the risks associated with remaining closed (and these go well beyond the obvious questions of an income stream) ?

    What I'm seeing thusfar varies from line to line, but a phrase missing AFAICS is 'phased reopening'. Maybe this is 'taken as read', or already covered by 'prior booking only' arrangements, but under conditions none of us have ever experienced, it seems odd that so many lines look to be placing all their eggs in one basket. Will open stock, modified as per 'the big railway', prove better suited to the current situation than compartment carriages, or not? Isolation, or free flow of air? Damned if I know!

    Similarly, many lines had already gone at least part way to the 'exit through the gift shop' model and formalising that can only serve to assist the safe flow of happy punters, though obviously at the risk of irritating folks waiting for their service to depart.

    My thoughts keep turning to Horsted Keynes, where platforms 4/5 (astride one track) seem almost custom made to cope with controlled flows .... and wondering whether here and at other locations, use the footbridge/subway in 'one way' mode, with passengers shepherded across barrow crossings in t'other direstion to maintain distancing. Practical? Honestly dunno.

    Anyone who imagines that, left to their own devices, the common sense of the public will somehow prevail is kidding themselves ..... however many informative safety signs abound. After yesterday's sortie, I actually wished I'd succumbed to my first instincts, back in March, and built myself a Dalek suit (preferably fully armed!) for forays into crowded areas. Individually, folk may engage brains, but taken in groups, invariably behave like an unthinking herd. Any notions of 'responsible social distancing' were notable only by their absence. Does anyone suppose any bisy tourist attraction will fare any better?
     
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