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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Just to clarify things a little.

    The person called Bristolian116 was suspended after a series of very personal posts that received a double figure number of people who reported them. Most unusual - both the unpleasantness of the posts and number of people who reported them.

    Rodders154 has requested that his account be deleted after being named as someone whose posts were being monitored because of how their content was running too close to Forum Rules.

    In the first case, this was an inevitable outcome. The second is best described as someone taking their bat home which is, of course, their prerogative.
     
  2. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    There seems impartiality on both sides of the debate. It is hard for anyone to take any view that can see the two sides of the coin and not attract criticism. Although I suspect many readers of the thread do try see both sides. Neither side of the current struggle on the WSR is 'squeeky clean', as it is said.
    John Bailey, as far as what was mentioned on NP is concerned, was to medite/arbitrate between the PLC and the S&D Trust. What is not known by most posters here - although some close to the hub of WSR may know - is what was discussed by JJP with John Bailey when he arrived in Somerset. There is a possibility he was asked to expand his remit maybe. The fact that he even bothers to post here, despite the brickbats, suggests his mind is not closed to the interest that many here have in the future of the WSR.
     
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  3. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    apologies @Triumph 2500S but you really do have the wrong end of the stick . and my perception rightly or wrongly is that whilst the stirring has been subtle , there has been plenty of it .
     
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  4. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    But here is the problem.

    There are several sides in Somerset and perpetual internicine conflict.

    It is impossible to get any agreement because each side hates the others.

    John Bailey comes in as an outsider with no vested interest in the WSR fight. He is not affiliated with any side.

    He presents a report on the S&DRT and then the future of the WSR as a neutral outsider. It can be accepted by all because John Bailey is a neutral outsider who is not affiliated with anyone side.

    Then, John Bailey gives an interview, where he essentially undermines his own neutrality and legitimacy as an outsider by taking and voicing the PLC's side in what is a debate that is nothing to do with him.

    How can any side have any confidence in John Bailey in the future if he is so strongly on the side of the PLC? He has shown his hand.
     
  5. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't and is nothing to do with the issue as I understand it.

    I don't think any reasonable person would object to the awful transphobic comments and their author being removed

    I think it is now important to end this discussion as I believe the alleged recipient of the legal letter is utterly incapable of such abuse!
     
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  6. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Well-Known Member

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    I vaguely recall a tower as you describe but why it was removed and not not replaced I don't know - was it relocated to Minehead when the tower on the platform went back to Wales?
     
  7. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Is it planned to run any 'Non Santa' trains over Christmas/New Year?
     
  8. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    I was temped to maintain a dignified silence but when I see nonsense like this it needs a firm rebuttal. At least it's correct that I chose to volunteer suggestions on structure. They were separated from my comments as a facilitator in discussions between the PLC and the S and DRT and made in a personal capacity.
    The report was sent to all three Chairman not published by me. It appeared to find favour with their respective boards suggesting the opportunity for a new start on an agreed basis. As others have observed the PLC is inevitably a key player in bringing that about. People may wish it were otherwise but as the holder of the Lease and the operating licence its board and shareholders cannot be simply swept aside.
    Subsequently we have seen the proposed election of additional WSSRT Trustees pledged to merge the two charities and force change in the PLC. The objective of a single controlling charity is the same. It just involves the supremacy of one the current ones rather than a fresh start. I've made clear that I don't question the motives of those behind the plan. I disagree with their method and I'm also convinced that it can't work. In the failed attempt to impose it I believe it risks raising tension and anger and, most importantly, suggesting to external bodies, on whose confidence the railway depends, that an unsettling attempt at forced regime change is being made.
    I hold no brief for the PLC or any of the other players in this saga. My only interest is the wish to see a viable and successful WSR established for the future. In particular I have no contact whatsoever with local press as spokesman or otherwise. What has developed is an agreed position by all three Chairmen and, most recently, a unanimous view amongst members of the PDG.
    I'm advised on here that I have been played like a fiddle. I resent the insinuation of niaivety. However there is a tune being played and it's harmonious. The three Chairman, and in all probability their boards, are singing from the same hymn sheet and now the PDG has joined the choir.
    I wonder who is really out of tune?
     
  9. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    AIUI the basic premise of the Bailey Report is that there should be a single controlling charity and a subsidiary operating company - fine, I'm 100% behind that idea. What still confuses me is the apparent insistence that creating the former from the WSRA + WSSRT and the latter from the existing Plc will not work, mainly - it would appear - because of the assumption/fear that the 'new' charity will come with 'baggage'. But in reality, how will that be avoided?

    Much concern has been expressed previously about the potential to lose the members of the 'old' charities when a new one is formed, but the obvious approach surely is simply to transfer those members from old to new at the time of formation? Such members of course will include those or are past or present Trustees etc. The new charity probably will have Objectives very similar to those of the existing charities. So the end-result may well be a charity that is 'new' in name only, and probably with at least a few of its Trustees being those who previously held such office elsewhere. But how can you avoid this anyway, unless you were to bar membership of the new charity to all those deemed to have been 'active' or 'controversial' in the old charities?

    A similar argument may well apply to the Plc given, given the apparently confusion/uncertainty as to the practicalities of transferring the legal operating rights of the railway from one body to another within a sensible timescale to enable operations to resume next year.

    IMHO there seem to be two basic alternatives:-
    1. Start again with completely new organisations and people, or
    2. Do a 'quick fix' with adjustments to the existing organisations and then 'tidy up' the loose ends over time.

    John Bailey may well be right that the former is preferable, but how long will it take? The risk with the latter, of course, is that - rather as with the Coombes Report it would seem - the initial euphoria soon fades into the usual internal strife.
     
  10. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    If this were any other railway, I would have to agree with what John Bailly has written, How ever, such are the problems, that beset the organisations, that he is always going to be on a hiding to nothing, the idea of a new charity, etc, fine as it is, then falls apart when the vested interests start to say, yes but only on my terms, the PLC board , have an interest to try to ensure its on their terms, the WSRA who mistrust( with good reason) the PLC want to merge their charities to ensure they not the PLC have the influence, to redirect the way foreward, to one that might be more acceptable to their memberships, and the executives on all organisations, are scared of losing their power, the board, no doubt pushed by the chair, see their power to run things as they see fit under pressure, as if a charity holds the power, they lose theirs, unless they can make it so that they, not the charities hold the levers of power, a tame charity trusteeship, that they control, where as the WSRA see it the other way round, with the charities, holding the PLC, or operating company held on a leash by the membership of the charities, through a controlling share . Clearly, there is no middle ground, and only time will tell what the eventual outcome is.
     
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  11. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    You couldn't maintain a dignified silence on the WSSRT issue either and that is the problem. You should have remained silent.

    You have conflated your roles as an independent neutral facilitator with those of a volunteer devising structure who has a vested interest in seeing their vision come to fruition.

    You complain that the WSSRT issue means the supremacy of one group, and you consistently defend the PLC as the only game in town, and yet you ignore the role of the people involved with the PLC in causing tension and anger on the railway. Your proposals mean the supremacy of that group. At no point have you explained how this is going to suddenly magic up a peaceful somerset.

    How are they going to change the culture?

    Moreover, do you not think that your use of language 'Trojan Horse' etc, serves to cause more tension and anger? So far from helping, you are pouring fuel on the fire. And rather than the PLC having to say it, you've done their job for them. You've been ventriloquised by the PLC.

    You've been played like a fiddle. You should have been playing 4.33
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  12. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Just out of interest, has anything been said anywhere from the PLC/Senior Management that abuse by volunteers/members of other volunteers/members will not be tolerated and those responsible will be banned from the railway etc?

    Only, I notice that SM have been very quick to ban dissenting volunteers, or those critical of SM from things such as Facebook.

    To not take a stand against the abuse of volunteers is another management failure. This is where management should be leading the way, especially in terms of actually moving the culture forward in Somerset.

    Is it so hard for Jones Pratt/PLC/GM to put out a statement saying that 'While we disagree with the group of 10 who have decided to stand as Trustees of the WSSRT, we are shocked and saddened to hear of abuse being directed towards them. There is no place for abuse on the WSR and anyone abusing a member of the WSR family will be banned.'

    That would be what I would hope any normal management at a normal organisation would do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  13. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    I agree with what you say about impartiality to the extent that I would not accuse you of bias towards the Plc. However everyone is prejudiced. Without prejudices, we couldn't function. We simply haven't got time to work everything out from first principles every time so we must rely on our previous judgements of the matter, i.e. our prejudices. It just so happens that you see a lot of things the same way as those who currently run the Plc, much of what they think is best for the future of the railway, you think is best also. You have persuaded them that what you see is the best structure for a heritage railway is the best structure for the WSR. All this has been done without any participation or taking sides in the historic infighting that has bedevilled the WSR since its inception.
    However, this is not necessarily the public perception of your actions. Unfortunately your choice of language in criticising the WSSRT trustee candidates went well beyond simply thinking that their choice of tactic was wrong and suggested partiality. It's one thing to argue for your plan as against someone else's and suggest that the other plans has fatal flaws in it, but it is another to simply "diss" the alternative plan without addressing any of its substance and insinuate accusations of bad faith in doing so. I appreciate what you have said above "I've made clear that I don't question the motives of those behind the plan.", but I would argue that the choice of words "Trojan Horse" does just that, accusing the candidates of carrying one manoeuvre to conceal another, whereas their public statement says that they intend to use the combined shareholding to bring about the change that both you and they seek.
    Nowhere have you actually explained why the candidate's plan, which is so similar to yours, falls down. All the following points are shared by both plans:
    1. Single charitable organisation owning the Plc,
    2. That organisation be a new organisation with new charitable aims,
    3. That organisation to contain the members of the existing charities,
    4. That organisation to contain new trustees,
    So where's the difference? As far as I can see the difference is, as always on the WSR, in the personnel. One plan has everything firmly under control of the current "bosses" of the railway and the other would be in the control of others, notably the rank and file. It is plain from your postings that you see the latter as contrary to the natural order of things, "a charity is not a democracy". That is your opinion, to which you are entitled. You don't think the alternative plan will work, I don't think your plan will work, and, by the looks of things, many others don't either.
     
  14. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    The Mid Hants Railway changed its operating and trading arm; Mid Hants Railway Plc into a Limited company a few years ago.

    They don’t seem to have had too much difficulty doing it.
    I accept that MHR Preservation Society Ltd always held >50% of shares in the Plc / Company. So nobody was burdened with contacting thousands of individual shareholders.
    But, where there is a will, there is a way....
     
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  15. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Is that the abridged version of 4'33"?
     
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  16. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Could you tell us a little more about it? Why did it change/what triggered it? It would be interesting to hear more about other lines that changed their structures and organisations.
     
  17. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    It's the radio edit. :D
     
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  18. SebWelsh

    SebWelsh New Member

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    Yes, we hope to run a Winter Steam Festival of some kind hopefully. Keep your eye out for more info. We have a gala planning meeting to discuss options on Thursday so cannot say more at this stage I'm afraid. Good news for once :)
     
  19. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know why MHR changed from Plc to Ltd. I just remember it happening.

    It would be very interesting to read about preserved railway structures. I think it’s worthy of a new super duper long rambling thread, rather than clogging this one up with facts.
    No doubt there will be some willy waving about whose structure is best.
     
  20. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Well, this is my idea of a nice preserved railway structure :)

    View attachment 54466 Chelfham viaduct 2003-2.jpg
     

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