LMS Black 5 5025

Does a Highland Railway line count as home turf for a Caley loco?

It's not only authenticity. Familiarity or otherwise has a strong influence. A green Stanier Class 5 looks wrong, while a green Jubilee or Hall looks perfectly OK.

 

What if you can't tell the difference between a Black 5 and a Jubilee? (And people say GWR locos all look the same ...)

Tom

 

With Mr.Stroudley's celebrated livery firmly in mind, surely that rather depends on precisely which shade of "green" you're thinking of?

 

Not really, a Black Five looks wrong in green, even if it's actually yellow.

 

Now come on Tom, there was one very obvious difference - one had nameplates and the other didn't (with 4 out of 832 exceptions!). Of course that was then. Now there is a tendency to tart up locos in this preservation era, so a tarted up Black 5 can indeed look like a tarted up Jubilee. Its good to see real authenticity being applied to 5025's restoration.

Peter

 

Post Nationalisation Yes.
There are several pictures in the Anderson/Cross 'Steam in Scotland Vol2' (and elsewhere) of Pickersgill locos (3P and 3F) north of Perth.
Indeed I have a reprinted article from Railway Mag (1970s ?) about the acquisition of the Strathspey line and their plans headed up by a WJVA picture of 57634 leaving Aviemore with a goods train for Craigellachie.

So to be authentic on a Highland line BR black not Caley blue would be right ( leaving quickly now ! )

 

Gamboge, Sir, that'd be gamboge. Just as well a few of Mr Stanier's 'Very Modified Halls' weren't on the M&GNJs books, dipped in 'Golden Ochre' then, eh?

 

Glad it's not just me! I looked at a few Jubilee and Black 5 photos and nameplate was the one obvious thing that jumped out - but then I remembered there were named Black 5s. (And I am aware that over 16 years, Black 5s developed such that there were numerous detail differences between locos).

I agree with you that the approach to authenticity of 5025 is laudable (and I like the LMS livery as well - get rid of that dastardly 4xxxx number series ...)

Tom

 

Main differences: (1) the 5Xs had noticeably taller chimneys; (2) the running plate at the front narrows Horwich fashion on the Fives where it dropped down to buffer beam level; (3) the 5X cab was taller than the Fives' (not always obvious); (4) many 5Xs had Fowler tenders; no Fives ran with them; (6) the decider - the position of the handrails on the boiler, half way up on a 5X; three-quarters the way up on a Five.

All pretty easy, really!

 

Simples! Now, can I interest you in the location of sandbox as a distinguishing feature between A1 and A1x Terriers?

Interesting that the absolutely fundamental distinguishing feature between a Black 5 and a Jubilee - the number of cylinders - is simply not visually apparent!

Anyway, back to 5025 ..

Tom

 

Add to which the 6" difference in driver size and the most obvious (for me at least) the (Apologies for the terminology) cylinder protruding in the middle of the front drop plate for what I assume is the valve spindle for the third cylinder....

These southern types will always bang on about Swindon products and their cousins looking the same rather ignoring the MN/WC/BoB aesthetic mash

 

6? Surely it's 9"

 

Yes...and we loved winding people up with it Got people paying to come in though, or as Peter Beet used to say "that'll get some nips (new pence) in the bank!"

 

For those among us of more discerning taste .... obviously!

Back to 'Black 5s', I suspect, had the LMS adopted LNER practises, there'd have been several /1, /2 etc. sub-classes within their less than homogenous ranks. Even though they were one of the very last classes to drop their fires for the final time, back in 1968, I wonder how workshops regarded the many variants?

 

Not to mention on the Southern their allegedly different H15/N15/S15's ....

At least the LNER gave everyone a sporting chance with their locomotives: if you knew your alphabet you could at least get the first bit right even if the number afterwards had to be guessed....

 

Jubilees, prominent wheel splashers. 5's not so.

 

Quite right! Although, from a distance it was the chimney shape that used to prompt cries of 'JUB!! (non of this Jube nonsense)' among us spotters at Lancaster, back in the day.

 

Ah, but.....I understand that 5025 is being fitted with a taller chimney, which was how the early members of the class were turned out when built. Is this chimney the same size as on a 5X?

Peter

 

Further to lack of familiarity with the specific loco, I'd imagine many crews will have been starved for turns in general over the last 18 months, so the Strathspey is killing two birds with 1 stone and offering extra turns to crews who are keen to get them, to be refreshed with the line they are working, with the bonus of an extra bit of practice on a new loco. Plus I'd imagine some crews would be grateful for the opportunity to get to grips with working a loco facing the opposite way to most other Strathspey locos (to the best of my knowledge) and the subtle difference in boiler management this requires. I certainly would!

 

The most impressive Black 5 s were the few with double chimney and caprotti valve gear . The large outside bowed steam pipes ,reminded me in my younger days of a muscular man. Leeds used to send one sometimes on a Bradford express that left Kettering at 6.25 pm ,the deep throated noise it made climbing the 1 in 125 (similar to a Duchess )was a treat. Loco men in my area called Jubilee's ,5xs ,black 5s ,number 5s. Enthusiast's known black 5s as Stanier's ,5xs were Jewbs. The first time I heard the term black five was when a Northampton lad started coming over. He also called 4f s clackers ,due to the noise they made when coasting.
Three photos ,I didn't manage a photo' of a caprotti 5 .but got 44766 on Crewe South 27/05/1967. 45156 a named one on 15AWellingboro shed 08/04/1958.It had been on Midland locals for a few days but managed to run hot ,hence the centre drives out. Scottish engines repaired at St Rollox ,always had big numbers. The four named spent many years allocated to 65B St Rollox ,but in 1958 ,two were transferred to 26A Newton Heath . 45675 Hardy climbing out of Kettering with a Bradford Express /1954, 300 yards or so from my parents house. Taken during the hour long school diner break.