LMS Black 5 5025

Outside contractors always seemed to have applied slightly different versions of livery and other details. The NB Loco Company delivered their locos with polished steel wheel rims, cylinder and valve covers, which looked very smart but I don’t think they stayed that way for long

 

The along a punt, but I’m guessing 5025 is the current job heritage painting are involved with. They have been asked by the group not to post updates until the job is complete. Should be a great job, if you spend that much effort on getting a loco rebuilt to tip top condition, you want it to look good too.

 

Apologies for reposting the above, but a game of "spot the difference" on my lunch break beckons. She really looks a different beast with the taller chimney and minus the step. I don't know why but I think 5025 looks more handsome now as a result. I am sure the changes were made for practical reasons during service but I really like the look of a Black Five "as built" here. Maybe it's my LNER bias showing, but I had no idea the Black Fives changed that much over their lifetimes, or had so many different little variations, like the top feed placements, prior to reading this thread.

 

It has been said that, by the 1960s, the were no two identical Black Fives!

 

Once you've sorted out Black 5s, you can document all the detail differences on a Southern H15

Being serious, reading "Under 10 CMEs" and "Raising Steam on the LMS" are, together, real eye-openers on how loco design is evolutionary - which will clearly show up in a class like the Black 5s that were built in large numbers and over many years duration. Quite often loco histories might have a throwaway comment that such and such a batch of locos had 6" longer on the wheelbase, or a differently shaped throat plate, but those two books really get under the skin of not just what differences there were, but why there were those differences.

Tom

 

Thank You Jon, I hadn't realised that!

Richard.

 

Richard, see my post #297, previous page.

 

Yes, indeed.

 

The general accepted way of identifying an engine is by its frames but Crewe built some spare frames for the Black 5s so that’s not possible without going through the record cards and they weren’t always accurate.
When it comes to differences, there were the short firebox versions both domed and domeless, topfeed pipes outside the cladding on the earlier examples, long firebox boilers, with the last batches having the topfeed further forward. To complicate things some short firebox engines had their frames altered to take long firebox boilers. There were different positions for the steam Lance on the smokebox, the vertical recess on the steam pipe and those that were modified with smokebox liners had an extra row of rivets on the smokebox wrapper. Earlier engines originally fitted with a vacuum pump under the cylinders, taller chimney and plain cylinder wrapper, later modified with a removable cover in the middle ( two sizes ). Originally plain, later snap-head riveted bufferbeam.
Post war locos had fluted rather than plain coupling rods and flat section rather than half round beading to the cab windows. The last ones had a longer wheelbase, I think to accommodate roller bearings. Finally there were the high and low platform versions of the Caprotti fives, the former having double chimneys along with some of the latter. 44767 with Stephenson valvegear and originally built with double chimney.
Then we come to tenders, riveted, part riveted and welded, plus two self weighing versions.
In BR days a lot were AWS fitted and those that survived long enough had the top lamp bracket moved to the side of the smokebox door. Apart from that they were pretty much the same standard design.
Have I left anything out?

 

Livery?

 

Don’t even go there!

 

On the livery front all I'll ask is. What shade of Black? And with that I'm off in my red TT roadster making a quick get away..................

 

Thank You Jim! I knew the Midland, L&Y and LNWR all used shedcodes, and that the L&Y and LNWR had the plates on the rear of the cab, but for some reason I was under the impression that the Midland practice of a smokebox door plate would prevail.
All very interesting, education is a wonderful thing!

Richard.

 

What shade of red though?! Crimson Lake or BR Maroon? Or Bufferbeam vermilion?

Richard

 

Well, the Midland plates did win in the end, and lasted through to 1968 too!

 

Motion differences.

 

All three, plus Midland Railway Red/Maroon

 

I think I mentioned those

 

The provision of a "step" under the smokebox in later life here reminds me of 92220 "Evening Star" which received a more substantial platform in the same location in early 1963. As is well known she operated over the S&D for a few weeks in late summer 1962 and returned for another brief spell 12 months later. In '62 she was as built with no platform but by '63 she had been modified. It is one way of knowing in which year a photograph of her on the S&D was taken - another way being the size of train she is working as the lengthy holiday trains of '62 had given way to 3 and 4 coach locals by '63.

Peter

 

Afraid not. From 5472 the connecting rods were reduced in length from 11'-3" to 10'-10" with commensurate increases in the length of the slidebars, piston rods and union links. Also there were changes in the design of the valve rod slidebars and combination levers and the fitting of roller bearings in the eccentric rod big ends at some stage in the building of the Class. As has been previously stated, the Class probably ended up with 842 one offs.