Carriage warming loco

Question for LMS experts, in particular 2968.

I'm in a Facebook group about LMS locos and someone has put a confusing picture on, it's of one of those LYR Barton Wright 0-6-2 tanks, and it's second set of driving wheels have been removed and a chimney extension fitted. The caption says it was withdrawn in 1911, but it's in LMS livery and it's got the number 4608. That number was in the gap between the last 4F (4606) and the lowest numbered Black 5 (44658)

I thought only the 0-4-4 tanks were used for this purpose. Any ideas?

 

A bit odd, this: I wasn't aware that some were used as stationary boilers. The 0-6-2Ts were a Barton Wright class based on a Kitson design. There were two versions, one with 4ft 7 5/8in wheels (10 engines introduced Oct 1880) and the other with 5ft 1in wheels for passenger work. Fourteen came from Kitson's starting April 1881, and forty more from Dübs starting August 1882. Only two of the 4ft 7in wheeled lasted into LMS days, 145 (LMS 11600, not applied) and 146 (LMS 11601) They were withdrawn in 1928 and 1931 respectively. Several of the 5ft 1in lasted into the 1930s, 203 (LMS 11617) lasted to December 1932. None from either type was withdrawn in 1911; 631 was withdrawn in February 1928 as LMS 11608; could this be the engine? The number 4608 might not be in the running series and departmental engines might have their own numbers, based on the previous LMS number? Alternatively, and depending on the state of cleanliness, the 11608 might appear to be 4608.

The information comes from Barry C Lane's book on L&YR Locomotives (Pendragon, 2010 ISBN 978 1 8998 16 17 0). He makes no mention of any being used as stationary boilers.

 

There was a very detailed article on the ex L&Y locos used for carriage warming in a BRILL or Bylines. I have the article and will try to find it. One 0-6-2T was at Cheetham Hill into the early 60's IIRC. One of the 0-4-4T's even survived the end of steam not being cut up at Edge Hill until 1969!
Ray.

 

Blackpool Central(2), Blackpool North (1) , the east Manchester carriage sidings out of Victoria (3) and Accrington (1)were all 0-4-4 tanks. There was an ex L & Y loco at Edge Hill, but I cannot find the photo of it. (Marshall 5's post has answered that.)

 

I know. I saw it at Edge Hill on 12 July 1968. That really was one that got away.

 

I don't normally look at Wiki but it came up with this:

They were as being described as "probably the most useful type on the LYR in their day".[11] They were noted for being capable of managing a train of 12 coaches of 12 tons up the 1 in 27 gradient to Oldham Werneth. Most were withdrawn in the early 1900s with a few lasting into LMS service in the late 1920s and early 1930s. One of the goods engines, No. 146 was fitted with a crane in 1924 and survived until 1931.[13] About twenty of the passenger variety lasted into LMS service, with four surviving until 1932, and No. 247 with motion removed serving as a carriage warmer until the mid-1960s

247 was one of the Kitson batch, built May 1881 and withdrawn May 1905.

 

Some more info on this thread:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/ex-lyr-stationary-boilers-blackpool-1961.25773/

Note Post #10, which says that a BW 0-6-2T was used at Garston Dock for heating banana vans.

 

There's a colour photo of the Edge Hill 0-4-4T on Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/curly42/16567811253/in/photostream/
I was told that the 'other' one at Edge Hill was an old LNW DX boiler. Still looking for the article but it sounds like the same info. as mentioned in the above post.
Ray.

 

I'm inclined to think it's the one at Garston, as in the photo there are a lot of goods vehicles on sidings in the background.

Thanks for the updates and input.

PS, On the same group yesterday, a picture was put up of the best loco to carry the number 4472. It was LMS 4472, the real deal, a glorious Derby 4!

 

It just looks so salvageable from here, doesn't it? Remember though, even now, the only new 2-throw crank axles I can think of are much more recent, being Didcot's BG Fire Fly* and the LNER G5 (If you've not yet seen the mesmerising clip of this one turning on a lathe, on the project website, do treat yourself). Recall too, that sad image from pre-reopening Blodge of the doomed Moel Tryfan, languishing stripped for repairs then simply too far beyond any resources available to a cash-strapped fledgling preservation-era FfR, then still several months from running it's first passenger services.

*Open to correction here, but I believe the earlier BG reconstruction used a re-engineered driving axle from an SG industrial.

 

3205 had a new crank axle a good few years ago; the fractured one being on display at Buckfastleigh, or was the last time I saw it. I’m sure there are others and there are certainly other crank axles, such as 60163. These things are no bigger than some Diesel engines.

 

Was that a forged axle or built up, though? I suspect the Horwich product was forged and the Swindon built up, which is a different situation entirely.

 

Wasn't aware 3205 had major surgery, so thanks for that. My pre-edit post did mention Tornado, but decided to stick to just 2 throw axles, what with no newbuild Leader on the cards!

 

Fairly certain that 3205's replacement was a built up one, although I think the fractured axle was forged. I'm surprised to learn that the G5 axle has been forged. Good to keep the old skills alive but it must have introduced a significant additional risk of forging laps and other defects in doing so.

 

Different application and different scale, but earlier in the year a 4 throw (pretty sure it's a forging) crank axle was supplied to the www.kerrstuart4415.org.uk team, replacing the fractured and irreparable original, from a vintage MacLaren lump. No sign-in needed to see attached image:

https://m.facebook.com/KS4415/photo...750172765003449/?type=3&source=48&__tn__=EH-R

With the necessary support, this amazing survivor looks set to be back in action ahead of the centenary of it's trails on the Col.Stephens era FR/WHR

 

If I can quote from The L&Y in the 20TH Century by Eric Mason.,Ian Allan/1954. After withdrawal from stock ,a number of 0-4-4T and 0-6-2Ts were used as carriage-warming boilers .The motion for the driving wheels were removed ,tanks and bunker in possition on the main frames,which rested on the bogie and leading wheels. .Attempts have been made at different times to trace which engines were allocated to this menial task,but the running numbers ,of course ,had been removed,and in many cases the makers plate as well.However it has been established that Nos.20,61 ,625,636 and 912 were so used.One that stood near the carriage shed at Irlam was replaced by another in 1920 by another unknown chassie,and as similar changes were made at othe centers ,little can be said with any degree of any accuracy as t the identity of these relics. End of quote from book. It is interesting to note ,that the engines mentioned were withdrawn 1900-1910. I can remember seeing the ones at Blackpool in about 1956,they were however not much of interest to me ,as with no number ,I could 'nt make a note them for my ex LMS engines.. One similar loco' I could count, was L&Y 2-4-2T 10897 at 5F Uttoxeter ,that had been used on fire grate experiments.Photo'd on 25/08/1956,see attached.

 

[QUOTE="Cartman,
I'm in a Facebook group about LMS locos and someone has put a confusing picture on, it's of one of those LYR Barton Wright 0-6-2 tanks, and it's second set of driving wheels have been removed and a chimney extension fitted. The caption says it was withdrawn in 1911, but it's in LMS livery and it's got the number 4608. [/QUOTE]

Having had a dig through my copies of Bylines I found the answer in Vol.6.11 (10.2001).
Boiler No4608 at Garston was ex L&Y 0-6-2T No.239 (KS2320/1881) Wdn.11/1911. It was at Garston by 12.54 and replaced in 1960.
FWIW the other 0-6-2T was ex L&Y No.247 at Cheetham Hill which wasn't scrapped until 7.1967. I hope this answers your question.
Ray.

 

Would both the 0-4-4s & the o-6-2 have had identical boilers? They seem to have lasted well carriage warming- one wonders with what maintenance. At Liverpool the longevity may have been a testimonial to the quality of the water.

 

The 0-4-4T's had the same boilers as the 1876 built Barton Wright 0-6-0's so there is good possibility that the 0-6-2T's also shared this boiler. Unfortunately Barry Lane's volume doesn't include any boiler details apart from the B.P. - 140psi.
As regards maintenance, during the summer when not required for carriage heating, the loco's made periodic visits to Horwich works for overhaul or even boiler replacement. There is a photo in one of Jim Markland's 'Bolton Engineman' books of an 0-4-4T, in train, on its way to Horwich. In Bylines Vol.6 No.11 there is a photo of one, boilerless at Horwich. As you say Liverpool did have good quality 'soft' water piped from N.Wales.
Ray.

 

Thank you indeed. It would never have occurred to me they could have made trips to Horwich. I assumed they they were immovable in their sidings - inextricable from under their tall extension chimneys.