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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not to mention whether the castings were accepted by the customer - I've very limited sympathy for customers where something has been accepted by them and is then found to have been sub-standard where they've had reasonable opportunity to have checked during the acceptance process.
     
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  2. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Perhaps they should have used an independent inspector, or at least had one examine the results obtained by the manufacturer?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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  3. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    In that case, clearly someone dropped one hell of an clanger, leaving the trust to pick up the pieces and the cost of having new castings made, i would still hope that the foundry would still try to help , even if it was to cast replacements at cost, Its now very clear to see why the former management team, are no longer involved with the project,
     
  4. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think as a customer you cannot know everything about your purchase. You have to accept that the goods are fit for purpose as described. You purchase the goods on that basis and if it proves not the case you have recourse for compensation, rectification, or your money back. This particular case is complicated by the fact of receivership and not knowing the full details it's difficult to comment. One thing for sure the receivers will have covered their backside....
     
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  5. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    but who would have been liable? the original management team of the project, for not insisting on additional tests, before any machining etc, LLangollen Railway, for not having the wheel castings tested when delivered and tested for cracks, using magnetic particle testing, did the project accepted the castings ,or did LLangollen, acting on behalf of the projects management team? it appears that there was little, or no quality checks at any point from when the frames were delivered to when the component assembly stages were finishing,
     
  6. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Well that depends on your contract and expertise doesn't it? I must have bought hundreds of hard disks in the course of my IT career, but I never checked a single one because they were contracted to be good and we didn't have the facilities for significant testing.

    If the contract stated the wheels should be fully NDT tested before delivery and it turns out the testing was botched then I don't think I'd blame either Llangollen or the Patriot group.
     
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  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    At this point, it doesn't matter who was responsible. Those formerly in charge of the Patriot project may have gone, but were acting for the project, not themselves; if Llangollen were involved in the acceptance process, any recourse will be limited by their going into administration.

    The challenge for the Patriot project now is not to go over what happened in the past, but to deal with the hand they've been dealt and deliver their project. Meanwhile, I trust that their experience will have at least some benefits for other projects learning from their bitter experience.
     
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  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fair challenges, both. For something as material as this, though, I stand by my view - acceptance is vitally important, and needs to be gone through extremely carefully. Errors can be made, but from an IT supplier perspective, I press project managers very hard to ensure that there is a clear definition of what will be subject to acceptance so that there can be no doubt about what is being tested. That is so that customers can run proper acceptance tests that can be pass/fail in nature.
     
  9. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    Who accepted them? (The administrators haven't "covered their backsides", it's just the same as you can't blame the undertaker for the actions of the deceased).
     
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  10. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    I agree...but difficult if I'm buying a washing machine for instance...the scenarios are endless...
     
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  11. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Llangollen took delivery of COMPLETED wheelsets to install in the frames. The quality of the castings had nothing to do with them.
    Just digressing from martin1656's post. Bolts with undercuts in!!!!! What is the world coming to. That is asking for trouble, especially with fitted bolts.
     
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  12. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    Administrators undertake, excuse the pun, certain liabilities....like the undertakers not being responsible for the deceased demise, they are not responsible for the insolvency .
     
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  13. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    Like your clarification...bolts ugggh...
     
  14. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    The bolts are rather concerning, aren't they. Lots of new-builds are using them - here's hoping they all have the QA to show bolts like that weren't fitted.

    I think it was the nightowl blog that went to detail on casting, but IIRC, foundries take limited liabilty on big short-run castings due to risks in the process. At which point, all you can do is NDT it and hope it's fine, but do it as soon as possible to avoid this sort of situation.

    I wonder if a mindset developed to throw it all together for the big 2018 reveal, then sort the problems after. Which isn't the daftest plan in the world as long as everyone knew that and bought into it
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The candour of the team in writing up their reports is admirable, but it is hard not to reach the conclusion that the engineering expertise of the group was not up to the level of complexity of what they are attempting. Even with reputable contractors, surely it is incumbent to have expertise both in the requirements setting and acceptance parts of the process? If you don't have that within the core project group, you need to find it, for example an independent competent person to advise.

    Going back through old reports, it appears that the wheels were delivered in 2012 - nine years ago. That feels like a long time to take to discover that the castings had flaws.

    Sadly it is all going to be a lot of money to sort out. People are focusing on how many things need to be made new - but the group are talking about significant disassembly and reassembly, to the extent of e.g. removing frame stretchers etc. Every rivet and bolt that was once put in place and now has to be removed and then eventually redone is all time and money. From reading the report, it sounds like the group have already disassembled, or are committing to disassemble, the front buffer plank, bogie stretcher, both outside cylinders and the inside cylinder. That's half the frame assembly; I'd bet a dime a dozen that eventually the entire frameset has to be set up from scratch. That's hardly cheap even if all the cylinders, stretchers and frame plates are reusable.

    Tom
     
  16. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Well, no incremental pain over what's been reported already, though. The details of the cylinder and frame issues have the consequences which were previously supposed: some pain, but much less than the wheels.

    Interesting news there: "Boro Foundry have started their own investigations and the wheel sets are due to be transported to their works (at no cost to the project), to aid this to be undertaken. The x-ray inspections that Boro had undertaken by an external contractor when the wheels were cast have been found to be poorly exposed and not capable of showing up any defects." The last bit sounds like the sub-contractor engaged by Boro to ascertain the quality of the castings then did work which wasn't fit for purpose.

    Depending on exactly whose responsibility it was (in the contract between the Warrior group and Boro; hopefully this point was covered explicitly therein) to verify that the wheel castings were fit for purpose, Boro might be partially or wholly responsible for re-casting them. (If they are, they might have a cause for action against their sub-contractor - depending, of course, on the details of the contract between Boro and them.) Because of that "transported to their works (at no cost to the project)", I rather suspect that Boro might well be somewhat 'on the hook' (because why pay unless you are obligated to) - or perhaps Boro are a very upright organization, and are taking on some responsibility entirely on their own, in which case my hat is off to them.

    On the wheel front, it sounds like we'll have to wait for the outcome, but it may well turn out better than it might have seemed at the start, when we thought the Warrior group would have to bear the entire expense of the replacement wheels. Maybe the cost will be shared between all three? There will be a delay, of course, which will be 'not good', but there's already going to be a delay because of the cylinders/frames. All in all, my current rating is 'not good, but not a complete and utter disaster'.

    Noel
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I guess we all hope you are right, but my worry is that the cylinder / frame issue is, ultimately, more significant to the delivery timescale than the wheels. A correctly erected frameset is the core of the loco: without it, huge amounts of fiddly, time-consuming work can't proceed. No lubrication runs, no brake set up, no steam heat, no setting up axle boxes and so on - all the fiddly stuff between and on the frames can't be done until they are signed off. So if- as I fear - the frames have to be broken down and re-erected, you put all that work on hold for a considerable period.

    There's a project management joke that sometimes does the round along the lines "the first 90% of the project takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes the other 90%". Outshopping a loco is a bit like that: all the fiddly small jobs at the end are very time consuming. When the group got to the point of showing a rolling chassis with smokebox and cab at Warley a few years ago, I'm sure many people though - it's nearly there. But it wasn't even if all that work had turned out to be spot on, and now it turns out that that work wasn't spot on.

    Tom
     
  18. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    They were going to remove the outside cylinders anyway in order to attend to the desire to modify the valve chests and this also required the removal of the bogie pivot stretcher. This has allowed some of the frame to be revealed but it has also shown that there are questions about the quality and fit of the fasteners involved and if there are flaws in the securing of the cylinders then every other bolt/fastener used in the build to date needs to be examined. So it is very much like I wrote earlier; disassemble, inspect and conduct remedial work and then put everything back together properly.

    Give the group their due, they are getting on with it and their communication makes a pleasant change from the fog of of issue avoidance that characterises some other organisations we discuss. They also appear to have found a good and supportive environment in the West Shed. It will take some time for the driving wheel issue to be resolved and that time will allow for substantial attention to be devoted not only to the frame issue but also to the continued production of outstanding components. It will take time and money but it can be done and the more people that stick with supporting the project the sooner it can be done. Playing a blame game is pointless in that what has been done is done and those that might be considered responsible are no longer in the picture. It is a setback, another one sadly, but no one has been hurt and no one has been killed.
     
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  19. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    If it was me dealing with the wheels I would be tempted to go for a full refund from their existing supplier over the cracks and put the order in with William cook cast products instead who cast the wheels for Tornado. DB Engineers when visiting about the boiler were so impressed with the quality of the wheels that they now supply them too.

    Go for the supplier with the proven record who has already shown they can do the job.
     
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  20. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure it's quite that bad.
    Things like all the fiddly pipe runs can be dropped off and then re-installed (space permitting). I can't imagine spacers will be damaged by persuading off. But yes, setting out has to be done again. Albeit if the cylinders were coming off anyway, there's a lot lost anyway.

    It's a pity they can't do what I did (on a somewhat smaller scale) when swapping frames on my racebike, and have old and new next to each other and swap parts from one to the other.
     

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