If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It will be interesting if, at the end of all the work being done to build and improve the P2, the inescapable conclusion turns out to be "Thompson was right"
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh, ye of little faith ........ what's wrong with a 2-4-0 and an 0-4-2, no new big chufferitis and leaves a spare boiler and tender for Tornado

    .....
    Ouch, who threw that? :Arghh:
     
    johnofwessex, jnc and Cartman like this.
  3. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Van driver
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think the P2 is a particularly attractive loco, apart from its inherent problems.

    To me, it just looks wrong somehow. I prefer the P1.
     
    paullad1984 likes this.
  4. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,987
    Likes Received:
    5,084
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It's all in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. Personally, I thought that 2001 was an extremely handsome engine, probably one of the best aesthetically.
     
    Johnb, MellishR, 2392 and 2 others like this.
  5. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,567
    Likes Received:
    2,345
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It’s just you ….. ;)
     
    Johnb, 2392, jnc and 1 other person like this.
  6. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    283
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The P2 had 21 inch cylinders with 6 feet8.5inch between centres and did not colide with platforms.
    If wheels had been 5 feet 2 inch ,cylinders could have been 19 inch for same tractive effort and could have been placed 6 feet10 inch and a half apart.
    This extra inch is almost exactly what the Prussian P10 of 1920 needed as transverse fredom for front driver in a KH truck. 260 locomotives worked for 40 years.
    P10 did 128km/hr on the level with test train.
    Small wheels are no bar to high speed for three or fourcylinder locomotives.
     
  7. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think what gets interesting about the W1 and the P2 is that there is a strong feeling that the concept is right (the French make very nice 2-8-2s and water-tube boilers work on the high seas), so the loco must be workable with just a few more tweaks.

    When you think of the number of much more conventional locos that didn't work, and were scrapped rather than heavily re-worked. No-one says a Drummond 4-6-0 proves that 4-6-0s were a bad idea in general. I do wonder if some of the views expressed challenging the rebuilding of the P2 follows an inverse of the logic - 2-8-2s should work, therefore the P2 would have worked, so rebuilding was a bad idea, and anyone doing it has to either be vengeful/ignorant etc.

    I think even if the A1SLT make a perfect P2, it doesn't prove that that was the right idea at the time. It's obviously too late now, but if someone had bought Thompson a few pints and then got him to draw his fantasy 2-8-2, I wonder what he would have come up with?
     
  8. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A 14XL?
     
  9. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Van driver
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    No. Got to be 6220-46257 inclusive!
     
    Gav106 and LMS2968 like this.
  10. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Adams Radial tank.
     
    Hirn, Hermod and johnofwessex like this.
  11. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,987
    Likes Received:
    5,084
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes, as an LMS man I did struggle with that! But 2001 has a certain something not found anywhere else.
     
    ross, MellishR, Cartman and 1 other person like this.
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I don't think 0-6-0 locos are as rare as you suppose - nor as un-useful. By my reckoning their are twenty-one such tender locos preserved, and they represent a good spread both geographically and across time.

    Using a previous rough-and-ready classification scheme, you have the following:

    Generation 0
    1. South Hetton Railway "Bradyll / Nelson" (1840)
    2. S&DR No. 25 "Derwent" (1845)
    Generation 1
    • None
    Generation 2
    1. S&DR 1001 class No. 1275 (1874)
    Generation 3
    1. L&YR Class 25 No. 957 (1887)
    2. NER class C No. 876 (1889; displaying some generation 4.5 characteristics by withdrawal)
    3. NBR 18" Goods No. 673 "Maude" (1891)
    4. L&YR Class 27 No. 1300 (1895)
    5. SER O class No. 65 (1896; rebuilt and displaying generation 3.5 characteristics by withdrawal)
    6. GWR 2301 class No 2316 (1897; displaying generation 4 / 4.5 features by withdrawal)
    Generation 4
    1. CR 812 class No. 828 (1899)
    2. SE&CR C class No. 592 (1902)
    3. GER F48 class No.1217 (1905)
    4. GER Y14 class No. 564 (1912)
    Generation 5
    1. MR 4F No. 3924 (1920)
    2. NER (LNER) P3 No. 2392 (1923)
    3. LMS 4F No. 4027 (1924)
    4. LMS 4F No. 4123 (1925)
    5. LMS 4F No. 4422 (1927)
    6. SR Q class No. 541 (1939)
    7. GWR 2251 class No. 3205 (1946)
    Generation 6
    1. SR Q1 class No. C1 (1942)
    The obvious gaps are:
    1. A generation 1 loco of any type
    2. An outside frame generation 2/3 loco (think Midland Railway; Craven-era LBSCR; Armstrong-era GWR etc).
    Anything else would be oddities: I'd quite fancy an S&DR "Wilberforce" class 0-6-0 (generation 0) and an outside cylinder "Commerce" class (generation 1), but you are going a bit left field there. The grand-daddy of them all "Royal George" would be a very deserving subject for a new build, on the other hand; there was interest, but I gather not sufficient to get a project off the ground.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
    jnc, LMS2968, 2392 and 1 other person like this.
  13. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Van driver
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Midland Kirtley double frame*plus a Johnson/Deeley 3F please if we are talking about 0-6-0s

    *can authentically carry BR number and livery (black, naturally) one became 58110
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  14. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Van driver
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Unstreamlined, and with smoke deflectors on a Duchess
     
  15. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Hmmm, I am not sure I agree. The number preserved relative to the number built means relatively few survive. ie compared to the number of Singles built vs the number preserved + replicas

    For example for generation 5 more than half the survivors are one class.

    For generation 4 - 50% is from the GER.

    The only generation where there is regional distribution in generation 3.

    I am not sure about your claims of a geographical spread with only two Scottish representatives and nothing Welsh all told. I suppose you could add in the two Irish 101s (a rare case of a numerous class preserved).

    Some companies in particular big users of 0-6-0s are completely missing most notably the LNWR and the LNER (GCR or GNR). SR is represented but pre-SR is limited to just SER/SE&CR.

    The Midland has only a 4F, despite Kirtley building over 800 0-6-0s and Johnson and Deeley building over 900. So out of almost 2000 0-6-0s built by the MR - just one survived. I think it is fair to say that this is under-representation.
     
    andrewshimmin, MellishR and Cartman like this.
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    All steam locomotives are under-represented if you put it like that. How many singles are preserved? Ignoring oddities like "Gazelle", you've basically got the Stirling Single, a Midland example and two early LNWR examples - yet that was the pre-eminent form of passenger loco through much of the nineteenth century. Their replacements, the 2-4-0 tender loco, has fared even worse, with just a small GER example, one from the Midland and "Hardwicke" preserved.

    As for regional representation - two out of 21 preserved 0-6-0s are Scottish; I suspect pro-rata that is not far off the relative proportions of Scottish and English locomotives built.

    Of course it would be nice to have more locos, but I think both in geographical and temporal terms, the 0-6-0s we have preserved now give probably a better representation of what actually existed than more or less any other type except big pacifics.

    Tom
     
    jnc and 2392 like this.
  17. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Likewise, how many welsh? (With the valleys tending to 0-6-2 tanks, and the cambrian to 4-4-0s)

    Post-grouping, the 2251 would have worked in Wales, and possibly the 3Fs and the 4Fs. Pre-grouping, you could argue an LNWR surivor would count, given their operations in Wales
     
  18. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That isn't what I said. And no one is saying that there isn't under-representation across the board, however, relative to their numerical dominance fewer 0-6-0 goods engines very few survived compared to other numerical dominant types ie 4-6-0s. That is luck of the draw they were already outmoded by the interwar period, and they are not very sexy. And I don't think that just 2 Scottish representatives, nothing Welsh, nothing LNWR is a good geographical spread.

    2-4-0s hit the same problem as earlier 0-6-0s as underpowered for modern needs and so would only ever been high days and holidays locomotives. Nice to have but hard to fund. But again, a lot more 0-6-0s were built contemporary with those 2-4-0s. A few hundred vs several thousand. (4-4-0s do badly though).

    If we are after authenticity, then part of that needs to be redressing the balance. At the moment heritage railways take a Downton Abbey approach to presenting the past. The 19th and 20th Century as country houses and great estates and ignoring the urban and rural working class elements of it. So if we are after recreating a more accurate and authentic representation of the steam era then more 0-6-0s would be a start. But let's be honest - Edwardian or Victorian passenger loco is going to get funded a lot more easily than a DX or Cambrian 0-6-0, because the passenger engine is what people think an engine 'ought' to look like.

    WRT Singles, I count -

    Caley Single (Scotland is a blind spot)
    Stirling Single
    Cornwall
    Aerolite
    Bloomer (rep)
    North Star (rep)
    Firefly (rep)
    Iron Duke (rep)

    And the idea of an Dean Single gets trotted out every now and again.

    Elegant and all that and very much looking like what people 'think' a late Victorian loco should look like rather than a more representative, less glamorous goods engine.

    A good point. For example no one is suggesting a new build Fury or Holden's Decapod, Reid-McCleod.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
    Cartman likes this.
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You forgot Caley 123 .... and Rocket! I wouldn't count the 12"/ft static display model of the Dean single, but wonder if Fire Fly Iron Duke and North Star ought to be in there?

    There's an original 5'-3" gauge GS&WR 2-2-2, from 1847 on display at Cork's Kent Station. Given the frankly dreadful 'official' Irish track record on preservation, I've literally no idea how on earth this one came to be rescued, but it was certainly withdrawn pre-1925.

    3057846_43990f52_800x800.jpg
    [Image courtesy geographic.ie]
     
    andrewshimmin and Monkey Magic like this.
  20. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The most difficult task with a new build W1 will be the livery..:)

    Knut
     
    MellishR and 2392 like this.

Share This Page