West Somerset Railway General Discussion

You keep going on about ancillary attractions but there is a counter argument to this and, in the case of some lines, it is not their core business so why get involved with non-core activities? The IOWSR has to because it is a railway that goes from nowhere to nowhere so has to make itself the attraction. Lines like the WSR, NYMR, KWVR and T&DSR go to somewhere and that 'somewhere' is the attraction. They take people to that somewhere, leave them to have a good day out and take them back again. What is the point of providing all these facilities at a significant cost to vie with the other attractions when your core business is in reality transport. If your train is full, and hopefully it is, you are going to dump 300+ people at the end of the line all wanting something to eat. Do you build a 300 seater restaurant to keep them on your premises? I don't think so. They haven't spent £80+ on train tickets to have a meal on your station or perhaps let the kids loose in your adventure playground then return. They've come for the day out in Minehead/Whitby/Haworth/Dartmouth.
Smaller, lesser lines might have to provide sufficient to keep people on their premises but not those with a destination; they need to stick to the core business. They may provide the odd facility, such as a small buffet to feed a few, just like museums often do but not with the intent of keeping people in there. NRM excepted, that is.

 

I am afraid that that this is is merely enthusiasts wishful thinking. Lines need every penny of profit from shop sales and from the supply of refreshments. Tourist railways are entertainments first and means of transport second.

 

I'd actually put it a bit stronger Paul ..... "Tourist railways are entertainments which just happen to also be a means of transport"

 

They do, but when the line in question has those features, investment needs to be focused on where it can yield the best return. I refuse to criticise lines like those mentioned for following that strategy. Much as I suspect the NYMR, for example, could increase revenue from catering, I’ve my suspicions about whether that would generate sufficient return to justify the capital expended.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Well let’s put it in very simple terms, how many of us would be around to reply to this thread if we didn’t have the cash to put food on the table, put a roof over our heads, then pay for things like broadband and the tech to use it if we weren’t good at raising the funds, (ie going out to work to get that cash)

I’ve asked this question before and I’ll ask it again as you find it very difficult to answer, why is it you seem to be so keen to defend the current WSR regime, when various people (way above my pay grade!) all seem to agree there needs to be some sort of change.

Please let’s have a chat and maybe we could meet over some common ground.
All the best, Matt

 

If you are going out to earn it- that is income.
If you can save some- that then is capital.
Things my accountant father taught me

 

You have one too?

 

- or that would have been 'expenses'!

 

Harking back to the price/value for money aspect of the discussion, it seems to me that a few pages back we had forum members who are also parents saying that they felt it was steep vs forum members who run/volunteer heritage railways arguing that it wasn't. This might be part of the problem. You can argue your price-per-mile and operating cost discussions all you like - but if the family says 'sorry, it's too much for us' then you won't get their business.

Looking at it purely from the family customer perspective, if I've paid £600+ for a week in Somerset for a cottage or hotel, then I'd have to think very hard about spending £100 for what is, as others have described, in effect a glorified vintage Park & Ride service on one day of our holiday. Especially knowing that when I get to the other end, even if we only go to the beach I might be buying pasties for lunch, fish & chips for tea plus drinks which could easily add at least £50 on. If we wanted to visit tourist attractions or slot machines, that's even more. If one of the kids is train mad, I'd do it. If they're not particularly fussed, I'd probably take the car and spend elsewhere, to allow us to spend more on other days of our holiday.

I haven't visited the WSR but based on what others have said, it needs to find USP that's more than a steam-powered Bus Replacement Rail Service!

 

Indeed, and the WSR can’t ignore the fact it has an up and coming competitor at Woody Bay.

I stayed in Minehead with my family last year. We had a choice of a trip on the WSR that would have cost £75, or a trip on the LBR that cost £18. So we had a drive over to Woody Bay, unlimited rides on the train, tea and cake at the station, and the children had a run around the wooded area. Then we stopped off at Lynmouth for fish and chips by the sea. The total cost of the whole day out was much less than £75, and more enjoyable for the children. They would have got bored sitting on the WSR train for 90 mins.

Yes obviously the WSR has higher costs, but that is the kind of competition they have for the tourist spend.

As the LBR expands, and with it’s stunning scenery, it’s likely to draw more and more customers away from the WSR.

 

The key word here arguably is ‘profit’ ( as an aside, not to labour the point but actually ‘contribution’
to the cost of running a railway.) Of course station and on train facilities including catering and
miscellaneous sales can add meaningful contribution but Steve is correct if you have a destination
with tourist attractions that is important. The key is to work with Minehead, Whitby, etc tourist
organisations to maximise the overall tourist attraction i.e. market size.

Any organisation surely should prioritise its available time/finances/energy towards its speciality.
In this case running a Heritage Railway.

( WSR is fortunate in having Watchet en route, the seaside and Quantock hills. The challenge is for
all the relevant tourist bodies to work together )

Ref WSR competition; whilst obviously other Heritage Railways may be considered as
competitors the major competition are other local attractions; they also set a price for
a day out perhaps ( irrespective of what the Railway total overhead might dictate )

Michael Rowe

 

I can really see why the WSR has been in borrasca! You would be in bonanza if you were correct.

 

The funny thing about heritage lines is that they tend to have an “R” in their title. They are not called “linear Garden Centres” or “Heritage Cafes” or heaven forbid “theme parks”!. My point is, that they are first and foremost “Railways”, with locomotives, carriages, stations, wonderful volunteers, special events and picturesque settings. For some reason they always have, and will continue to, attract people who for one reason or another, will choose to spend their leisure time at a railway. The majority of patrons will want to, or have at least someone in their party who wants to make a day of it at a railway.

@Jamessquared made a cracking list of income streams available to a railway and more power to those who are able to nail them down to their advantage, but it’s the railway part of the operation that underpins the whole thing.

If a family doesn’t think that their kids will want to sit on a train for “x” amount of minutes, then that is hardly the railways fault because there are probably an equal number of people who would relish the thought of parking their bum on an old fashioned seat and be transported through the countryside at a leisurely 25mph….although I’m not sure even that stacks up as a rationale,
because I’ve always observed that the majority of patrons at a railway attraction tend to have kids in tow - even on trips nearly three times the length of the WSR.

Doing the “Railway” bit well is still the most important thing - the rest is just gravy. A railway will never be all things to all people, but reading the later pages of this thread it makes you wonder….

 

The true "funny thing" is that they all have to earn enough money to keep themselves in existence.

 

Do they though? Wouldn’t it be nice, but I’m sure there is some fundamental law of business that says there will always be winners and losers. Because one business in a field is doing well, there will always another one that is in danger of going to the wall. All businesses cannot be doing equally well in a competitive marketplace.

 

Bonanza ! Only if total income from passengers ( i.e all the money a passenger/ visitor spends
on the Railway) exceeds the total spend required to run a service and maintain the total infrastructure.

In practice few Heritage Railways achieve this, hence the majority have to rely on the ‘begging
bowl’ to survive.

You can spend hours debating the relevance of length of line, frequency of service, steam or
diesel etc etc. Individual Railways have specific strengths/weaknesses. Certainly it is
incumbent upon managers to optimise market opportunities and utilisation of
resources ( human, materials etc ) to lessen the size of the begging bowl; but ultimately
Heritage Railways are a luxury that many enjoy. Let us hope we are not a fading force.

Michael Rowe

 

I take your point preserved railways aren’t theme parks but if preserved railways want to survive and prosper they need to move closer to a theme park business case. Isn’t there a case to say preserved railways are theme parks that run preserved steam/heritage diesel locos. Most people think of a theme park as being place to take thrill rides but surely in both cases they are both theme parks in the senses they both allow people to ride in or on a carriage. Preserved railways need to attract more families to visit and the more we can offer the more chance they will visit our railways.

 

There seems to be a common assumption that a trip on the WSR is a BL to MH return or vice versa and there is no alternative. Shorter (and therefore cheaper) trips are available for those who don't wish to spend so much time or money or both on the railway. Possibly the WSR doesn't push this aspect enough, but that shouldn't mean that a full-line trip should be viewed as Hobson's choice.

 

That's true to a point, but you have to think about the cost base.

If instead of someone taking a £30 BL - MH return, you get someone doing a a £20 BL - Watchet and someone else doing a £15 Watchet - Minehead, all well and good. But if you get someone doing a £20 BL - Watchet and then an empty seat from Watchet to Minehead, you've just lost £10 of income for no reduction in cost.

I've argued several times that there might be a service pattern of - say - BL - Minehad; Minehead - Williton (for Watchet) and return; return from Minehead to BL. Hopefully two different train loads of passengers for only one loco steaming cycle. But advertising the opportunity to do a short journey on a long service risks just cutting your income, unless you generate new passengers (i.e. demonstrably carrying someone willing to spend £20 for the BL - Watchet that wouldn't spend £30 on BL - Minehead). But if so, you ought to be asking why the available seat was empty in the first place.

Tom