Swanage Railway General Discussion

I believe it was said either on here or in Swanning Around it had moved to Margate for under cover storage as it was not possible to make it Covid safe during the early stages of the pandemic. Certainly the layout would not lend itself to Covid screens.

 

The Bluebell has two main carriage sheds:

• OP3 at Sheffield Park, opened in 2011. This fits 17 full length carriages (6 + 6 + 5 vehicles long)
• OP4 at Horsted Keynes, opened in 2018 though full use is only really happening now due to other building works and track laying. This fits 24 full length carriages for storage (6 + 6 + 6 +6), plus an equivalent length of a fifth road used for maintenance.

In practice, OP3 is used as an operational shed. It normally houses the Pullmans in the short road; the operational vintage set in one of the long roads, and a rag bag of other loose carriages and out-of-service engines as fit. It has a headshunt long enough to draw out a full length set in one go.

OP4 is used for storage primarily of wooden vehicles awaiting restoration. The length of headshunt means it is not realistic to use it as a running shed.

Even with all that, Mark 1s live outside (except when they are in the maintenance road of OP4 for routine running maintenance). AIUI, Mark 1s need periodic attention to the roofs, and the paint work is as susceptible as any to the effects of the weather, but apart from that, if you keep the outside structure sound, pay attention to closing windows at the end of each day, and ensure they are regularly heated in the winter, then they survive outside fairly well. If they start to leak, they go downhill fast, though.

Timescales: our carriage sheds have been getting on for 30 years in the making. There was an article in Bluebell News ca. 1995 that made the case for under cover storage (but clearly such articles only arise when it is already a talking point, so I suspect that by the early 1990s the need was already apparent to the more far-sighted members and volunteers). After that, OP1 (Carriage works extension) came in 2000; "OP2" (not called that at the time) was completing the western wall on the loco shed (2004 - 2006); OP3 at Sheffield Park (fund raising starting in 2003, completed 2011); OP4 at Horsted Keynes (fund raising started in 2014 following low-key design work; construction is only really now finishing). OP5 is a topic of active discussion around the railway.

What conclusions would I draw from a primarily external perspective?

1. Covered accommodation for carriages is a generational, change management type activity. We started discussing the idea in the early 1990s; it has taken thirty years and multiple phases to get to where we are now. The first job is to convince the railway's stakeholders (i.e. membership, primarily) that covered storage is more important than any other equally time- and money-consuming project. Management and Directors do not have infinite capacity to progress multiple complex projects simultaneously.
2. To do a single phase (i.e. one shed) is conceivably a 10+ year project between conception and completion. There will be design, fund-raising, planning regs, construction, commissioning type activity.
3. If space is at a premium (and show me a railway where it isn't) then the phasing of the project gets complex, which adds to timescale and cost. For example, when OP3 was built, the carriage yard headshunt had to run over the space that was occupied by the loco department washout pit. So before the shed could be built, the washout pit had to move. But the location of the new washout pit could only go where the old loco lobby was - so first new lobby facilities had to be provided; then move the washout pit, and only then could you start on the carriage shed. For OP4, to save money, the track inside (which will only see very occasional moves, since it is primarily storage) is being taken from life-expired track on the main railway. But that requires such track to be replaced, which is only happening a few hundred yards at a time each winter - so it took several winters to get sufficient track to lay. Etc etc.
   
4. It is capital-heavy, and that capital depreciates (which has a real, cashable impact on the balance sheet); whereas the saving is much harder to monetise, particularly for non-operational carriages. (If a Victorian carriage body you bought for a nominal £1 decays outside, that has no balance sheet effect, yet is sitting in a building that might be depreciating at thousands of pounds per year. Financial logic says don't do it, unless you are confident that the time saving perhaps decades in the future is worth it. The business case stacks up rather more easily for operational carriages)

From the foregoing, it is clear such projects are far from easy. Worthwhile - yes. Easy - no. Quick - no. Cheap - not if you want it quick (and probably not even if you don't mind waiting).

Tom

 

well with any luck you will be eating humble pie. No doubt even if it does start you will still complain.

 

Correct. It still belongs to Swanage and moved to Margate for storage. With a very open interior and entrance doors at only one end, it wasn’t easy to make covid secure.

With all covid restrictions now gone, hopefully it will make a return to Swanage soon. I wouldn’t be surprised if it stayed at Margate until the carriage shed is finished though.

 

Some did say I think that Car No 14 might need repairs first

 

Don't know about that. But it has reminded me that when ex Devon Belle observation car 14 was repatriated from the USA, Wasn't there another three pullman cars
which had been part of the Sir Winston Churchill Funeral train brought back at the same time?
I know one was the "Isle of Thanet" I think the other two were "Lydia" and possibly either "Ibis" or "Ione" ?
Sorry to start to wander off topic here, but I wonder where they are now? Did they go to Carnforth or perhaps the Bluebell Railway? perhaps somebody can help
with the details.

 

According to RHRP:

Isle Of Thanet/ Leone is at Carnforth
Lydia is at Throckmorton where Marshall's base is after some time at the NRM
208 is in Ireland
Carina is at the Bluebell
Perseus is at Carnforth too
and the baggage car S2464 is at the NRM.

S2464 was bought individually but Lydia, Isle Of Thanet and 14 were abandoned after the Flying Scotsman tour along with some Mk1s and Thomson/ Gresley carriages. Apparently the MK1s ended up in Kentucky.

 

• Isle of Thanet is at Carnforth: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2244
• Lydia went briefly to teh WSR (I think they had an abortive plan to have a Pullman train) and is now in Worcestershire: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2243
• Ibis is part of the VSOE set; I don't think it went to the US: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2242
• Ione - as Ibis: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2246

Tom

 

Perseus is not at the NYMR, it is in the Belmond Pullman and has been from its outset as the VSOE set - it was only on the NYMR for a couple of years and I don't think it ever ran there. It did form part of the Churchill funeral train but was not one of the cars that went to the USA.

 

Quite right, you'd think I'd learn when jumping between tabs to read a little deeper. I ended up just following what was on the list of Churchill funeral carriages

 

It was Lydia and Isle of Thanet that came back from the US along with car 14. They were both intended for use at Swanage to form a Pullman dining train. However I believe their private didn’t want to move them to Swanage until undercover accommodation was available there. So they ended up being stored at Carnforth. Not sure if there is still any prospect of them coming to Swanage as originally planned?

Bertha was also intended for the Swanage Pullman train, and did actually spend some
time at Swanage before going off for storage elsewhere.

 

Yes of course, Ibis and Ione are part of the Belmont Pullman train. I forgot about S2464, that was the other vehicle that came from the USA.
I must admit, that I have never heard of any proposal for a SR all Pullman dining train, but do remember Bertha being at Swanage IIRC it was in need of restoration?
We did have one of the ex SLOA mk2 Pullman coaches which did see service for a while cant remember which one, but it is part of the WCR fleet at Carnforth.

 

You would need a good memory to remember it, the plans seem to date back over 21 years.

This RCTS webpage from 2000 refers to Lydia and Isle of Thanet as being bound for Swanage.

https://features.rcts.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/preserved-coaches/Amendments/Pcsbra47.pdf

 

Been no talk of such for years so I think its not going happen now. I had a WSR member gleefully remark to me (when I had reviled I used to be a TTI at Swanage) how they were due to have one of the Pullmans on loan to them. That didn't happen neither but...

 

Indeed very interesting, I have been a working volunteer for 26 years now but for the life of me I can not remember anything about a Pullman dining train.
Wonder what became of Pullman car Bertha? Where is it now?
Edit: Google says that it is at Carnforth.

 

Away from Pullmans, Swanage devotees might like the picture on page 13 of the latest issue of The Bluebell Times -

10 April 1964, M7 30053 is being attended to outside Swanage shed.

https://www.bluebell-railway.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/issue-31.pdf

Tom

 

Well, there is the matter of the storied LSWR water tank languishing in the brambles to also be be attended to!!

 

Seriously? What is wrong with you?

 

If you make appeals,and collect monies then there is an obligation to act on those appeals ,some of which are getting very long in the tooth. Perhaps too many appeals?? and/or not enough research?. We were told that the Water Tank would save SR 20,000 pounds per annum on water bills etc. SR were gifted the tank which is a fine and very visible piece of LSWR history(Go well with the T3 wouldn't it?). Its a very simple mantra currently followed by some smaller railways. Appeal! Donations! Action.

 

And as has been explained to you, there's been a pandemic over the last 2 years (just in case you hadn't noticed) and the survival of the railway has quite rightly occupied the minds of the railway's management. Or would you rather the railway had built the carriage shed and water tower but had also gone bust while doing so?
You need to step away from the computer and let the SR get on with things. Come back in a year or two if the projects are still at the same stage and then we might have some sympathy with you.