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Locomotive Performance & Timing

Rasprava u 'Steam Traction' pokrenuta od misspentyouth62, 30. Ožujak 2022..

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  1. srapley

    srapley New Member

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    That's what I was thinking, but wasn't certain. Thanks!
     
    srapley, 13. Travanj 2022.
    #41
  2. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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    Or maybe even Kgf or Newtons:)
     
    Allegheny, 13. Travanj 2022.
    #42
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Oh dear, I fear you may be slipping into the same category as people who insist on giving speeds to the nearest half mph, or worse. But by all means enjoy an Easter egg or eggnog even. :)
     
    Big Al, 16. Travanj 2022.
    #43
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  4. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Can't be as bad as those who quote their timings to 0.1 or even 0.01 of a second. :rolleyes:
     
    RalphW, 16. Travanj 2022.
    #44
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  5. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Yes, read a report like that on here the other day. Was hard going and the phrase “delusions of accuracy” sprang to mind.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Sheff, 16. Travanj 2022.
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  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    The risks of spreadsheets, and the spurious accuracy they engender.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    35B, 16. Travanj 2022.
    #46
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  7. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Not a new problem of course: think CoT and Rous-Marten.
     
    MellishR, 16. Travanj 2022.
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  8. Mike Wylie

    Mike Wylie New Member

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    Not really, engines are designed to be fired by one man. The maximum sustainable output of the fireman is how the engine should be worked. That then raises other questions about 'Blue Riband' validity. If the engine is coming off at Hellifield then Ais Gill is very different to an engine and fireman coming off at Crewe or York for example.

    You can play of course to see what they can do but its not a true test of man, machine and environment.
     
    Mike Wylie, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #48
  9. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Interesting and valid comment. Are we trying to 'break' the fireman as well as the loco with these feats of strength? Maybe a discussion for this thread:
    https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/locomotive-performance-timing.1420905/
     
    Big Al, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #49
  10. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    It is easy to forget that back in the early '80 the BR Chief Medical Officer (no doubt with union support) had decreed that a fireman should be replaced after no more than 80 miles. This was because after a decade of working on diesels the pool of experienced volunteer firemen were likely to be less fit than they were to say nothing of being older. For a while they could only do York - Scarborough one way as a return was 84 miles. I cannot now remember when this ruling was relaxed.

    Peter
     
    torgormaig, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #50
  11. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    What sort of distances do you work now Peter, I suppose though it depends on continuous or whether there's a reasonable break somewhere?
     
    RalphW, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #51
  12. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I suspect that the unions will be in the background somewhere on steam charters except for those working for companies on a zero hours basis.

    For example, on a Surrey Hills that's about five hours on the move, the DB crew changes sides of the footplate half way. I don't think that West Coast has that flexibility; you either drive or fire. That said, on a CME doesn't the fireman change at Carlisle?
     
    Big Al, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #52
  13. Mike Wylie

    Mike Wylie New Member

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    We change around sometimes. Some of our young lads like to fire complete turns to prove they can do it.

    On the above point, i was firing the Brit on 'that' run South over Ais Gill. It was great but there is no way i would have made Crewe and was glad of a rest from Hellifield. So in my view the performance is a bit of a fake. I'm not saying it wasn't fun, just not that real.

    Maximum sustainable output of the engine/man is an ever moving goalpost. To see a fireman and engine working in the 'sweet spot' to use human aerobic performance terminology is a great thing to witness.

    I've listened to the majority of Peter Handfords recordings from all regions and you rarely hear an engine being worked extremely hard which concurs with i think Peters comments on this subject in the thread.
     
    Mike Wylie, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #53
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  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    I wouldn't think it's anything to do with unions or the zero-hours contract basis, but rules laid down in law similar to road haulage with specific rest periods and hours for rest between turns.
     
    RalphW, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #54
  15. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It's interesting to think of BR days of the early 1960s when Crewe supplied firemen who were expected to work trains to Euston or - the classic case - the Crewe - Perth leg of a Euston - Crewe service or the classic Saltley - Carlisle 9F turn. I once travelled with a Camden firemen who described one Crewe - Euston run where they left the footplate at Euston (for the disposal crew) then went to the "local"; he claimed that he couldn't / didn't taste the first three pints as he had sweated so much on the footplate.
     
    Fred Kerr, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #55
  16. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Reading Pete Johnson's books with the descriptions of firing on the Crewe to Perth and Crewe to Glasgow lodging turns, I can really tune in with what you say Mike.

    It seems to me that you can do something very simple like measure the times between A and B with a 12 plus coach train and a standing start from A. That tells you purely and simply what went up there fastest. Or you start controlling for all sorts of things--- firing, wind and rain, whether the line speed was exceeded, tsrs. Then you are looking for the most meritorious run, but you are in the realm of the hypothetical. On my sums, with no tsr at Griseburn, Tornado would have been very close to the record that day, but would the fireman have been able to maintain the firing rate to permit 55 mph plus throughout the climb? We will never know.

    A few years ago, I was thinking we would never see sub 20 minutes again with years of tsrs at Waitby, Griseburn etc attending to the cuttings and in some years a shortage of class 7/8 power. So, great, well done to all concerned.
     
    30567, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #56
    Mike Wylie se sviđa ovo.
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Where are these laws?
     
    Steve, 17. Travanj 2022.
    #57
  18. Mike Wylie

    Mike Wylie New Member

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    I believe the fireman on Tornado did it all on his own from what i've heard. Amazing performance i have to say if true. Chapeau!!
     
    Mike Wylie, 18. Travanj 2022.
    #58
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Well I can think of one trip I was on when there was a problem and the crew was still at work in the early hours of the next day. Definitely not within employment law but the people involved were probably thinking at the time of getting their passengers home and very grateful everyone was, I am sure.

    By contrast I can think of another occasion with a different TOC when the morning departure was delayed because the late return on the previous day didn't allow a sufficient overnight rest period for the crew.

    I'm not pointing any fingers with these examples just saying that if you are in a union/rules based situation then whilst the regs may be frustrating they also protect the staff. With loco performance nowadays we are often talking about people who have already retired and whilst their enthusiasm may keep them working it's not a healthy situation. So actually, the question is whether we should expect what we often do from those on the footplate.
     
    Big Al, 18. Travanj 2022.
    #59
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  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Aren't rules about rest periods and the like intended to protect the passengers at least as much as the staff?
     
    Jimc, 18. Travanj 2022.
    #60
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