7027 Thornbury Castle

Just to clear up any misconception; 4144 is owned by the Society, and has been for a long time.

 

I don’t believe I only just been told about this and I do not believe it is happening. I will never be going to didcot again if this happens so they won’t be getting me visiting it. They had done so much work to thornbury hall in the magazines it seems mad to be now taking it all to bits. I think this needs to get to some of the celebrity’s that like railways like jools Holland Pete waterman monty don and Rod steward and get a stop put on this damage.

 

The whole situation seems strange. At first there was the story in trackside about it potentially being for sale, then in the subsequent issue of steam railway it was stated that no it was a misunderstanding and it wasn't for sale. Then now the article about Didcot buying it for parts.

What has caused the owner to sell, some suggestion he has died and the family selling it ? What has caused the sudden decision to sell and not carry on restoring it at the GCR.

When I first read the article about the Didcot plans it came across like an April Fool joke.

The 47xx project doesn't excite me at at all. A bland dull non named loco that is not suitable for heritage line or Mainline use and wasn't common even back in the day. Cutting up a Mainline named express loco instead to create it is just madness.

 

I'm all for 4709 - a Night Owl does fill a spot in the Churchward story and I always thought that they had a certain presence in photographs.

However, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. The original Std No 1 idea was never attractive (even if prototypical of 4700 for two years), and bodging a Castle boiler from an otherwise under restoration 7027 to fail to recreate a 47xx seems absurd - and having been about to support the 4709 project, I will certainly not now.

 

I have not been a fan of JJP for the same reasons as many. He clearly is a committed railway enthusiast though. And is clearly a great enthusiast of the Great Western.
Some years back, he owned a major part of a Hall, and the Hawksworth pannier 9466. When Thornbury Castle came up for sale, JJP bought it, optimistically believing a lot of the restoration work could be carried out in his bus garage at Weston Super Mare. When it became clear that the necessary work was beyond his resources he sold the loco to someone who he believed had the necessary will and resource to see the project through.
Clearly, despite the rose tinted optimism I often accuse him of, JJP recognised that owning and restoring a Castle was beyond most ordinary men, whatever their enthusiasm. I do not doubt his desire to see 7027 restored. If he were able to re-acquire the locomotive, and were to organise a not-for-JJP's-benefit group to fund the restoration of 7027, I would contribute.
I certainly won't be contributing to the 4709 project

 

Don’t all Didcot locos need to be to NR standards because Didcot is landlocked, and to enter/leave the site you need to travel over NR metals?

 

They would certainly have to have had wheels ultrasonically tested, and be registered on tops, What is NR standards ? most preserved railway workshops have adopted what was MT276, as the required standard of work, because that's what the insurance industry require, even if its never going anywhere near NR's property.

 

To me, it's just crazy, the night owl project, already have other concerns, to sort out, such as rectification of previous work done, that was not of the required standard, To buy an engine, that's already had work done and is under active restoration only to in effect break it up for its various parts, makes no sence, 4709 is a long way from needing a boiler at the moment, and its not like theres a short time span either, so there's no justification in this approach, I would even go as far to say that potentially, 7027, could re restored and in steam, long before 4709 is anywhere near ready to need a boiler,
It makes far more sence to complete 7027's restoration, then with the experience gained from that, tackle 4709, and fund raise whilst doing it, building a new boiler, of the correct type, whilst expensive isn't un viable, the skills still exist to do it, and having a working engine to show you can do it, should give confidence, and with the mainline working in mind, sorry but 2 cylinder GW engines are so restricted, that its going to be very difficult to find any routes, but a castle, on the other hand, isn't quite so bad, and will have better route availability,

 

I'd love to see 1363 back in steam. It was my first firing turn as such. The usual diesel shunter had failed so someone was needed to light up at even earlier than usual so 1363 would be available for shunting by 8am. I wasn't a trained fireman at the time, but had done several lighting up turns, so I volunteered. Can't remember what time I started, but by 7am I had the needle lifting from the stop when the official crew turned up. The fireman took a look at the rather large fire I had in her and said carry on, put his feet up and for the next 4 hours I was 'fireman'. Great fun and predated my official fireman training by several months.

 

Most of which they've been talking about for many years. It does seem that they are finally making real progress on at least some of these things (although in the case of the water tower they didn't have any choice).
The shed roof has been a disgrace for many years, but not owning the site or having a long lease has hampered fund raising to get it fixed (grants for this sort of thing tend to only be available for long term tenants or owners of historic buildings). Having recently got a new lease sorted out means they can move forward more easily with all sorts of things.

 

More like conflicting rumours.
GWS own newsletters etc have made it quite clear that the original intention was to take it mainline. Then they realised that with struggling to get enough volunteers to run the site they were unlikely to have the staff to handle mainline operations too, plus the extra cost of mainline signalling equipment etc, it made more sense to drop that ambition for at least the short term. For the longer term, they are continuing to build in a way that will not prevent it going mainline in future. It's called keeping your options open. Seems quite clear and sensible to me.

 

Do they need another Castle? Pendennis is just out of the shop I suspect they've learnt everything they need to about restoring one.

 

Am I right in thinking that the smokebox saddle (and therefore the cylinder castings?) depend on the type of boiler carried? In which case, will the existing cylinders need modification to take a different type of boiler - if so, that is more work that at the very least, needs to be deducted from whatever cost advantage is seen from having a non-prototypical boiler.

I can't help thinking, in both the boiler type and mainline running, that the 47xx group is missing a mission statement. 'Beachy Head' has a clear statement in the magazine that is something along the lines of "to build a replica of Beachy Head for running on the Bluebell Railway in the condition it was at withdrawal" or something like that. (Can't remember the exact phrase). Straight away that statement answers lots of design decisions where there are potential options: Mainline running? No. Cab designs and boiler fittings (boiler, chimney etc)? Maunsell pattern. Bogie brakes? No. Tender design? Backed coal rails. Livery and number? Lined black, 32424. Everyone knows exactly what they are getting, and there is no protracted argument during development. My feeling is that the 47xx needed to have created a similar statement so you don't get years into the build and start making tactical or strategic decisions that then require rework of previous work carried out. In that phraseology, I see "fit a Castle boiler" as a tactical decision (i.e. based on an opportunity that arose) but which potentially both deviates from what donors thought they were creating, and potentially requires modification of the cylinders; and "mainline running" as a strategic decision that will drive a lot of the work to construct it - not least, I'd have imagined that getting the kind of Vampire study into ride characteristics that the P2 carried out may well at some point be needed - worse if that then suggests minor modifications in things like side play that might have been easy to design in before construction started but prohibitively hard to retro-fit.

My hunch is that the lack of an initial mission statement (or design brief, if you like) is going to mean lots of supporters get disappointed that what is produced is not what they personally thought was going to happen. Those happy with a compromised boiler might bulk because it doesn't go mainline; and those happy to see it on heritage lines may rue the visual compromises made to make it fit on Network Rail.

Tom

 

Sorry, but that does not make sense. The work done so far on both locos has been by different teams in different places. It is unlikely that anyone from one team would be inclined to join the other. As for everyone who's been working on 4709 temporarily moving to 7027, that will be well after the flying pigs. And there is already plenty of experience of new builds, rebuilds and straight restorations by many teams around the country.

 

IANASTME*, but if I remember correctly, this would only be necessary if the change was from a smaller to a larger boiler. The other way round, the saddle would be built up. One of the County Tanks was originally fitted with with a No.4 boiler (as per the 3800 Counties), which was replaced by a No.2 boiler (smaller, as per rest of the County Tanks), and I'm fairly sure I've seen an image of it with the smaller boiler resting on a thicker (for want of a better word) saddle. @Jimc will surely know.

*Swindon Trained Mechanical Engineer

 

I have not seen anything said about Vampire studies being needed for any of the other new builds or rebuilds. As I understand things, the Vampire study for the P2 was done because of known concerns with the Gresley design of pony truck. Tornado had been running for a few years before they did a Vampire study of that loco, and that was to validate the Vampire system for a steam locomotive, comparing the Vampire predictions with actual measurements of Tornado's movements on the road.

If the concerns about the riding of the 4700s were for speeds above 60 mph, and 4709 will be limited to that speed anyway (if and when it goes main line) it shouldn't need Vampire, unless the certification body decides that may as well be done for extra assurance.

 

Just to note: 3840 is not a GWS project.
It is a separate company and charity, although working with the GWS (and has received components from the GWS/Barry 10).

 

I picked up a 47xx Project supporters leaflet at the recent G&WR gala where funds were being sought for the immediate milestone - "Towards the rolling chassis". Future milestones are bulleted as : Acquisition of the motion & running gear, provision of a new No 7 boiler, restoration of a collet 4000g tender and acquisition of the fittings. The rolling chassis is said to require a further £100K

I'm not a betting man as such but if I were, based on what I've seen over the past 50yrs, I would say that 4709 deserves it's place but given everything else, I wouldn't realistically expect this to be seen running at Didcot or anywhere else before 2035 at a push - more realistically 2040.
Given the progress that we can see with manufacture of so many new fixtures and fittings to get 7027 back to working order, were someone to find funding & momentum to continue as has been seen more recently at Loughborough, 7027 could be on it's second boiler ticket before any of us see 4709. I don't think I'm being overly cynical in making this judgement but based on how long it has taken other builds and restoration during the past 50+ years of HR, I really can't see a huge advantage in terms of timescales.

 

They intend to fit it with the correct diameter smokebox, which is an easy operation, and make up the difference in the boiler diameter with the cladding.

 

I was referring to the group wanting new people, etc, then it does make sence, old hands showing, and training younger inexperienced people how things are done, and done right, do something you have done before, and are confident you can do it right, so in that regard, if the the project were to decide, no, we will restore 7027, instead of scrapping it, you can build up a team, gain experience , and then, if you tag in the Castle at the same time as fund raising to build the 47, it should hopefully eliminate the mistakes , that have having to be rectified with the work already done on 4709 .I happen to believe that the 47, due to its axle loading , size across cylinders etc will not be that useful, there is a reason why the class was not built in large numbers to start with,