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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. 2995valliant

    2995valliant New Member

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    What your are suggesting is not far off what was done in the late 70's/early 80s when for much of the week steam ran from MD-WN only, where you had the choice between changing trains to go onward to BL by DMU, or straight back to MD on the steam service. It probably saved the line back then, (and certainly helped the Bagnalls) but it was perceived as not popular with passengers, and they're probably even less forgiving of having to to change trains half way through the trip these days, even if there is a lovely footbridge now.

    None of this is new - when was it in the 80's that the then SVR GM said publicly "One more bad season for the WSR will be one too many"?

    Don't tell Paul, but the last time the line found a really good way to put bums on seats, the answer was big chufferitus - the visit of 92220 in 1989. Times may be diffferent now, but that visit seemed to be the culmination of a number of steps (including the return to steam of 88 a couple of years earlier) that really established the line in the big league. Very unfortunately it now seems to be slipping back into the days of the joke about WSR standing for "Will Something Run"

    It seems to me that the because of its location its fortunes are inextricably linked to that of tourism in Somerset in general, (even worse, tourism secondary spend) and no amount of pontificating or management reshuffles and bright ideas are going to alter that. I think their fate is largely outside of their control sadly.
     
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  2. Southernman99

    Southernman99 Member Friend

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    Couldn't agree more with this and your previous Tom.

    I know people will suck their teeth in on this but looking across the pond at the Harz system. They know their core traffic is Wernigerode to the Brocken, but every morning they have 1 steam service that comes up from Nordhausen, goes up the Brocken, down to Wernigerode and then back to Nordhausen.
    Aligning that thinking with the WSR options. What about a 10ish departure from BL, time is probably dependant on the coach bookings and their timetables. That set runs through to MD, bounces back to Williton then MD then back to BL. All the while you have a 2 train service, 1 steam 1 diesel running MD - Williton to cater for the short, keep the kids entertained on a rainy day from Butlins day trippers. Railways can no sustain an offer of just a ride behind a steam engine. There has to be some serious out of the box ideas to make the railway the first choice for a destination for families looking for something to do.
     
  3. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    Folks we are at an really serious point. The viability of standard gauge preservation is very seriously in question.

    Consider this, the Talyllyn needs just 95tons of coal to operate for a year! Some standard gauge lines use that in a month.

    You want out the box thinking, perhaps membership of the WSR should be £1000 per year. I know that's like joing a golf club, but how do we inject a new additional and very significant revenue stream? The fare box cannot cover the costs, whether you are the WSR or any other standard gauge line.

    An average overhaul of a medium sized standard gauge loco will cost £350k to £500k.

    Electricity bills on some big lines will jump from £100k to £500k.

    The HLF etc are key of course, but it isn't enough. There is a crisis looming.
     
  4. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I wasn't clear there. What I meant was that it is no good looking at existing passengers' preferences for travel and destination as they are based on a line that goes to Minehead. Naturally Minehead will get a lot more footfall than Watchet ATM, because it is the terminus, but that doesn't throw any light on what passengers' preferences would be if Watchet was the terminus. The only thing that can be done is ask people what there preferences would be if Watchet were the terminus and then some indication could be obtained as to whether the attractions of Minehead are really that much more of a draw than the attractions of Watchet.

    Quite agreed, not least because the fare box is not the railway's only source of revenue, possibly, if you count the value of the time donated by volunteers as revenue, not even the greatest source.
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't think the WSR can escape from the fact that the length of their line is a significant factor. The line itself does not have a regular traffic flow from one end to the other except perhaps in the holiday season. If a train ride were offered over a shorter distance at not much less than the current £30 the visitor numbers would still hold up, I think, and the operating overheads would be less as that's the drain on resources.

    Look at The Spa Valley that is only five miles long and yet fills trains when it runs events. At the Bluebell last week there were people more than happy to ride the shuttles on the 4.5 miles between Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes to see what was going on at each location and that was with scaffolding up at HK!

    You have to ask yourself what the 'destination draw' is at each station. Of course Minehead is a destination but nobody can seriously say that Bishops Lydeard is anywhere other than a place where you get on and off a train. And the principle intermediate station of Williton offers...what?

    I'm sorry to be negative as I do want the railway to drag itself out of its difficulties. But heritage railways have long realised that it has to be a visitor attraction more than just a line along which trains run and that seems not to be a strength,
     
  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Can I suggest that general (not railway) visitor numbers for the two places might act as a proxy measure for this. They are different in size and nature, and I have an uncomfortable feeling that Watchet may be being seen as an answer because it’s there rather than because of its own merits.

    I’d also be cautious about the interpretation of any such results in the context of this discussion. The questions that the railway would have to consider is not how popular Watchet might be as an alternative, but how many passengers they might lose if they did not go to Minehead, and how much goodwill they’d lose if the WSR contribution to the area’s tourist economy stopped.

    Recognising that the plural of anecdote is not data, an observation from personal experience. 25 years ago, camping above Watchet, we visited Minehead as a destination. Even with the improvements to Watchet since then, I’m far from sure that if staying in Minehead, I’d plan to visit Watchet as a destination.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  7. jamesd

    jamesd Member

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    All this talk of Watchet as a destination is way off the mark I'm afraid. I had a wander round during the Spring gala and whilst it's pretty, it didn't strike me a destination I would rush back to, particularly with my young family in tow. Many families I know (non enthusiast) enjoy travelling on steam railways for the joy and novelty of it be being a steam railway so it many cases that is enough. The destination is irrelevant. If they wanted to visit Minehead for example, they would probably jump off the M5 at the junction before Taunton and drive straight to Minehead rather than detour via Bishops Lydeard and a steam train ride.
     
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  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    On the first point, I'm putting myself in the place of someone who only knows Watchet from the station's running-in boards. "Here's a leaflet on Watchet" ahead of asking for a preference may well produce a different result to "Fancy a lucky dip?".

    I wonder .... is effectively abandoning Watchet - Minehead going to produce the desired results, or is a suggestion coming more from railway nuts (that's us lot, btw) who only know the line from driving to BL to start and finish their journeys? More likely, the answer is different according to where it's asked and of who, plus day, date and time, across the season.

    On the second, yes the volunteer input in terms of money and hours is vital to all but a handful of lines (though only one SG line comes to mind on that exceptions list). It also opens up the question of non-travel revenue, leading into not just catering and the gift shop, but wider questions of what is expected to produce it's own income and what is a 'value added' component of the ticket price.

    The thing which started me out 'looking over the fence' was the Ffesterbahn's Covid services, or in the case of Blaenau, lack thereof. The entire upper seven mile stretch of scenic railway, featuring two tunnels, the only spiral on a public railway in the UK, a waterfall right next to the train and a run along a lakeside to an interchange station with the big railway in 'the town that roofed the world' wasn't sufficiently attractive to warrant a service for months on end and even now, the majority of services stop short at Tan-y-Bwlch. The obvious question,"why?" isn't one it's remotely fair to ask of the railway alone.

    By dint of a goodly mix of history, luck and judgement, having appropriate stock to run 'covid secure' trains undoubtedly helped the FfR ... one need only look to Aberystwyth, where the layout of their GW built stock really didn't help and left them unable to run services in the wake of the first lockdown.

    The only definite which occurred was the question "should a town or area sit back content to let the heritage railway on it's doorstep do the heavy lifting in publicity terms". The answer is a hard NO, but for more than just the reason of iniquity. This is the flipside of another of my hobby-horses, making certain our lines operate within their own communities, rather than just happening to pass through a community.

    We're currently primarily concerned with the price and availability of coal pulling in the punters and increasingly about likely future legislation, all understandably enough, but when economic woes beset more than just the railway in an area, doesn't it make sense to work cooperatively, where it makes sense to do so? Who knows, it might even be an approach everyone wants to retain as and when (or 'if'!) the economy picks up again
     
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  9. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Is something like the Engine House worth considering for some of the WSR intermediate stations? Yes it would cost, but it could be an additional source of income and would make the railway a bit more of an attraction in its own right. Dare I suggest that a loan agreement with Didcot could be beneficial...
     
  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    To my mind the WSR has two assets:
    1. The Norton Fitzwarren link and the income from trains that use the triangle.
    2. Minehead.

    If there is a need to keep costs down then it is daft not to ensure both of the above are supported.

    As a centre Minehead has plenty of potential. It has space, a depot, a turntable, a cafe. It's in the middle of everything. You can even run a train up the line for about four miles to Blue Anchor, and back. You could do it with just one loco. Swanage to Corfe is only five miles and look at how well that did before its extensions.

    I agree that Watchet/Williton is not the answer but it is a way of reducing costs whilst still providing a visitor experience and you can do that from Minehead. To my mind anything that is based on Bishops Lydeard is a distraction. You only go there if you want to ride the whole line and by all accounts the WSR just cannot afford to operate the whole railway at present.
     
  11. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Perhaps at Washford, run by a separate organisation on a peppercorn rent taking responsibility for the site?

    Perhaps a dangerous suggestion...
     
  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    This applies to more than the WSR, but what's the feeling concerning 'budget' options? Is it opening things up to a wider customer base, or merely sapping the life blood from premium services?

    Question: if a DMU/railcar service at (pick a number) £18 is seen as taking passengers who might otherwise be paying £27 for a steam service running an hour later, is the reason the pricing, or the timetable?
     
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  13. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Errr...was there not the basic elements for such a thing at Washford until not long ago....:)
     
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  14. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    More than 60%of the revenue originates at BL
     
  15. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    At the expense of pointing out the obvious

    The WSR must know where its revenue comes from & costs, as @21B has pointed out

    Looking at that the question is how to maximise income and minimise costs.

    But without that information most of the discussion is WIBN
     
  16. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    >>>>...Swanage to Corfe is only five miles and look at how well that did before its extensions....

    Admittedly I have not been to the Swanage Rly for a few year now, but whenever I did go there I used to drive straight past Norden and park at Swanage. A number of reasons really:-
    1. It gave me the flexibility to come and go as I pleased, without having to rely on the trains to get me back to my car.
    2. (Certainly in those days) I could park without any problem within easy walking distance of Swanage station for free, rather than having to pay P&R car-park charges at Norden with money which went to the Council rather than the railway.
    3. There was flexibility to explore Swanage itself without having to dash back to get the last return train to Norden.

    To some extent a similar situation applies with the WSR. On the majority of the occasions that I go (or went) to the line for the day I would take the A39 to Williton and catch the train there. The vagaries of the Somerset road system and traffic meant that I simply could not be certain of getting to BL in time for the first Down train, in which case I would have a long wait for the next one, whereas I could get it at WN with time to spare and be certain of being in MD for an early lunch. Equally, I could get back to my car and set off home without having to relay on getting all the way back to BL and then tackling the Taunton traffic.
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Would that be fares revenue, or total through all the tills? I wonder how much of the remainder comes from stations other than Minehead? Surely even 25% of revenue would hardly be insignificant?
     
  18. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Indeed gents, but let's not dig up that one...

    Maybe a larger/more GWR/WSR history themed space would work for the current circumstances?
     
  19. Jon Lever

    Jon Lever New Member

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    You could argue that if it is simply an either/or choice of reason between the pricing and the timetable it is unimportant which reason it is so long as the net revenue per customer on the DMU service is equal to the estimated lost net revenue per head on the steam service. Not that it's an argument that really helps much unless the conditions under which the railway is operating remain constant and predictable. A former teacher of mine would probably mention something at this point about the elasticity of demand and the fungibility (or otherwise) of a given product.
     
  20. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Apropos the idea of not running all the way to Minehead: wasn't that exactly what was happening last year? The management must have believed that a connection the rest of the way was essential, hence running the buses.
     
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