The Leek and Manifold Railway

Hi Guys

I have just been reading up on the Leek and Manifold Railway Society, I was wondering if anyone has had any contact with them? The reason behind all of this was that the late Eric Leslie was a follower of the line and on more than one occasion he said wouldn't in be wonderful to have a working 2ft gauge version of one of the Manifold locos.

Now I am not going to suggest that we start cutting metal tomorrow, but I can't help thinking I wonder just how much support there would be for a 2ft gauge version taking into account that some modifications may need to be carried out to make it work.

what do you think?

 

It's half the size of the original but this beauty is available for £45,000...

https://www.steamworkshop.co.uk/portfolio/10-1-4-leek-manifold/

 

Sorry, but a 2ft gauge line? The old L&MVLR was the sole UK exemplar of engineer Everard Calthrop's vision, which changed the face of NG lines across much of the world. This was a man right up there with the Spooner clan and Col.Stephens, who IMO deserves to be far better known than he is.

Beyond that, unless something drastic has changed concerning the cycle track/footpath and public road which occupy most of the old route (including Swainsly Tunnel), this one is gone beyond recall. Add to that, the site of it's southern terminus is quite literally gone too, beneath a very busy road for which I doubt permission to reinstate a level crossing would be forthcoming and at the northern end, it finished in a pretty nondescript field.

In all honesty, I just don't see it. It came as a bit of a shock to me that there are aspirations for the SG line from Leek to extend back to Waterhouses, which would be a challenge for the Churnet Valley without the additional resources an NG operation would inevitably require.

 

I do agree that Everard Calthrop should be better known and as he has a link to the L&BR (the couplings are the most well known link, but there are others) I do know some of the guys in Devon are more that keen to make him better known, but just what shape that would take I just don 't know.

 

The original posting was about a new build loco not about re-opening the line, I thought?

 

That's what I thought too!

 

Looking at it, you're dead right. The subject of Waterhouses, plus the Hamps and Manifold Valleys popped up elsewhere a few days back, so still much on my mind. Sorry!

On a loco specifically, a looky-likey is one thing we already have, in the form of a pretty good half-sized edition on the Bure Valley, running as their No.9. What advantage would there be to doing another at 80% of full scale? Would Calthrop's flange lubrication system feature?

I did wonder if a recreation would serve on the W&L, but harbour certain doubts as to wheether axle loading across the total wheelbase would be up to the challenge of a full load up Golfa ... and that's assuming the impressive proportions were a fit for the loading gauge. I seem to recall some concerns that the buffer beams would foul W&L platforms.

By the by, a report from the closing day of the L&M mentioned that Calthrop's carriages rode as well as they had when they and the track were new, 30 years earlier.

 

Yes it is, I too can't see the old L&MR ever being in a position to be reopened. But as others had said this is not about trying to reopen the line, but more about finding out just how much support there would be if a new build 2ft style loco was to be build.

I have come across a lot of people all with the same idea but nothing happens. I have spoken to a couple of guys from the Welshpool and they don't appear to be to keen about building a loco that may not be suitable for the W&LLR.

I think it would be better to build a 2ft gauge version purely basis on the fact you could get more support for the fundraising if people knew it could travel to say the likes of the FR/WHR or the Lynton and Barnstaple as examples.

 

Yes the whole L&M Railway operation has as far as I am aware has never been covered to the same depth as say the Ffestiniog Railway.

As for the loco on the Bure valley does that not have a modified ZB 2-6-2 chassis? If that is the case then engineering wise we are still none the wiser as to what they can or can not do.

But more importantly how did Calthrop come to design such wonderful looking engines? and what was the reason behind them?

It has been suggested that at one time Calthrop had submitted his proposal to the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway board for consideration, but they chose in the end to go to Manning Wardle's, no one is sure or knows the reason behind that, but it is a great what if that had happen and also did Calthrop have any influence over the final design of the L&BR locos I wonder?

 

Calthrop also sought input into the W&L.

From my limited understanding .....

Calthrop's approach would have to be regarded as a system, as it was almost Corbusier-like in attention to detail. The objective was maximum capacity on the minimum gauge practical, whilst where possible mitigating the bogey of transshipment. On that last point, I'd imagine the problems experienced in several places where different gauges met was firmly in his mind. (I wonder if he'd seen the absurd (manual) coal transshipment arrangements all on the one level at Dromod, from C&L coal wagons, UP into 5'-3" gauge wagons!?)

The economics of Calthrop's system were underpinned by use of far lighter than normal rail (a seriously big entry in any line's ledger ). Compare the 35lb/yd of the L&MVLR to the 44lb/yd employed on the Talyllyn, 40 years earlier, or the 45lb/yd used on the C&L, much later having to be replaced with 60-65 lb rail.

Although the line had no unfitted stock, there was a strict 15mph speed limit. I believe that was intended to minimise wear on the very severe curves (down to 4ch (264ft) radius), though stability of SG wagons on NG transporters might well have been another consideration. It was the curvature which was the reason for another innovation on the locos, which was the use of water directed towards the wheel/rail interface to provide lubrication and minimise wear. I seem to recall a comment somewhere that this feature wasn't much used. Neither, apparently, were the impressive carbide headlamps.

On the transporters, there's old Pathé footage of the loading process, which was accomplished in seconds .... they didn't hang about. Rolling wagons on and off transporters made for some interesting design challenges, on at least one of the five, the stanchion on which the flexible brake hose hung could be rotated through 90° anticlockwise to lay horizontal during loading and the severe curvature dictated carriages featured duplicated pipes at each end to enable connections to be made with the transporters, irrespective of how tight the curve. The Jones-Calthrop couplers were similarly designed with awkward situations firmly in mind.

Around the time of closure, following the loss of it's staple traffic with the demise of Ecton Creamery, LMS reports stated that the necessary cost of resleepring was what tipped the balance to closure, but I recall no mention of rail replacement being necessary. There was mention of the condition of other civil engineering. This is pure conjecture on my part, but coupled with the fact the carriages remained on site until being broken up in 1936 (not too sure when loco No.2 left the line for the last time, but No.1 and most of the goods stock remained until scrapped at Waterhouses once lifting was completed in 1937), plus the LMS evidently bothering with any form of inspection suggests they at least may have at least considered following the example of the GW's VoR operation, something perhaps confirmed by reuse of much of the line for purely leisure pursuits.

At least one of the wagons survived to be sold on to the Admiralty and although said to have been a transporter there's a photos of what looks suspiciously like one of the two L&M bogie flat wagons in the yard at Chattenden on the C&U in 1950.

The closure, on Saturday 10th March, a snowy day in 1934 was barely mentioned at the time, an exception being a report on the last train by one D.M.Smith, who made the long journey from London, via Manchester, who commented on the excellent ride of the carriages, right down to the very last. He wryly observed the crew missed the opportunity to at least promise the train would never be late again!

Calthrop's other loco designs all bore a strong family resemblance to the L&MVLR machines. These were an earlier 0-8-4T design (5 locos, 1896/8) for the Barsi Light Rly and slightly later 4-8-4T designs for the BLR (9 locos, 1905-15) and the short lived Morphou - Evrykhou line in Cyprus (CGR 4 locos, 1915). Two of the Indian 4-8-4Ts survive, plinthed and apparently much appreciated*, due to what Calthrop's achievements meant for rural India in the days before the car and lorry. I've photographic evidence of ex-Barsi No.11, by then numbered 710, still at work at Kurduvardi as late as 1973. To the best of my knowledge, none of the CGR machines survives.

When I visited the line around 1980, the abutments of the underbridges remained in good order, though I was informed the girders on some and decking on all had been replaced in the more than forty years since the last trains ran. With Swainsly Tunnel in use as part of a minor road, that too was in very good order, with not the slightest water ingress following hours of exceptionally heavy rain. I've seen more recent images which show electric lights have been installed. The only original building standing was IIRC the old engine shed at Hulme End. A photo from 1950 shows the station building, but I don't recall seeing it during my visit, when the site was in use as a council yard though the day was suddenly cut short by the weather. Such buildings as line boasted were either grounded SG carriage bodies or not much better than a step up from a garden shed There was no more than a vague outline in the grass bank which had once been Wetton Mill Stn. Lavatories, if they could be called that, were 'earth closets' i.e. no plumbing!

*i.e. unlikely to ever be repatriated .... not that anyone I know of has asked.

 

I see Mr Calthrop has a page or two on wiki:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everard_Calthrop

One thing is for sure people need to get to know more about this engineer.

 

A bit of a thread drift, but I've some sort of recollection of a scheme involving a local school which had part of the trackbed in it's grounds involving laying a miniature line, I remember a locomotive was built (exhibited at the Model engineer exhibition) possibly by Severn Lamb. Can anyone else remember any of this?

 

Not sure about a school but certainly a local company was involved with the setting up of an L&M Gala for about three or four years. I think they lasted for a week each year. Sadly I never got to one and the one person that I knew more about all of this is sadly dead.

I am sure it has all appeared in print somewhere or on the internet.

This may help you to get started http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/rudyard04.htm

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rtleekandmanifold/?locale=en_GB