Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Trying to freeze the line in aspic in the Spring of 1935 (or September 1897 or any other date during the railway's life) isn't what I'm suggesting, but that it be used as a starting and reference point - I believe that the Bluebell have a specific plan for precisely this sort of thing. @Jamessquared ?

I think that the idea of Ffestiniog-style Pullmans would be an excellent (and hopefully lucrative) addition when the line is extended - it's especially useful when you're talking about a 2-hr trip (like Caernarfon-Porthmadog, 2h 15m), at which point a catered option (and on-board loos) makes much more sense. You could even claim a Southern pedigree for it: marshalled between green carriages, a Pullman would look like a 6-PUL or 6-CITY, albeit steam hauled. As for a full Pullman rake with observation car? 2' gauge Devon Belle!

 

Is there an anti-Southern Railway feeling developing? Are there supporters of the Western Railway [Great Way Round] here?

 

What I suspect we're looking at are two divergent views concerning the nature of the line's restoration. Such agreement as exists surrounds the trackbed (well, for the most part, at least!).

In practical terms, pretty much everything is a compromise and if our movement has demonstrated one consistent quality over the years, it's been the ability to adapt to ensure survival .... and if one thing from practically any of us lot is equally clear it's our ability to don the blinkers when it comes to what we've successfully justified to ourselves as either a completely untouchable 'sacred cow' ..... or an improvement so great as to negate any and all discussion.

It needs to be remembered why the old L&B failed (and did so comparatively early). To the charge of 'Disneyfication' (wow, spellchecker didn't bat an eyelid!), I'd suggest there are those who'd use the term as a "catch-all" pejorative to describe any deviation from theirs own subjective views on the restoration, or anything else, for that matter. I feel it would be quite fair to enquire of such folk how they see the line's successful restoration.

To no small extent, the charge of 'Disneyfication' (at least, according to what I understand the word to mean) can be applied to the entire ruddy country, if not much of the world. There was a time when we lived according to natural cycles. Now, we stumble from January Sales to Black Friday, via Mothers Day cards, Fathers Day cards, Flash Sales and the promotional meaning of easter and crimbomas (open a credit line and spend, spend, spend).

Sorry to turn the fire hoses on bucolic rumination, but anyone who thinks that to the overwhelming bulk of visitors, our lines aren't another attraction competing for money to survive needs to ditch those rose tinted spectacles and bin the blinkers. A long disused track bed and (thankfully) a fair amount of civil engineering may be being restored, but even accepting eight carriages as 'restorations' (or rebuilds .... I'm just glad to see 'em either way), for the most part all the stock needed will be new, however closely it resembles what went before.

There have been some interesting views expressed on what future L&B trains, serving the full length of the line will look like. We've several existing templates suggestive of what might be viable routes forward and about the only thing I'd discount out of hand, with a fully restored route, would be the notion of expecting anyone (at least, anyone not sporting enamel badges, at least one silver case and a zoom lens) to sit in a compartment for 1½-1¾ hours. Well, not if you expect them to come back.

 

I would agree. As someone who has been an intermittent volunteer (sometimes work/domestics/health got in the way!) at the WSR almost since the year dot, much as tho' I like that line and travel on it as/when I can, even I struggle to enjoy (endure?) the full round trip from Bishops Lydeard to Minehead and back (or vice versa). It is noteable that on the NatPres WSR thread there has been much discussion recently about the possible need in the current economic climate to (a) provide alternative options that are shorter/cheaper and/or (b) have more add-on attractions at intermediate locations.

Now on the WSR there are choices for people to (say) get off at Dunster and walk to the village/castle, Blue Anchor and spend time on the beach, get off at Watchet and visit the harbour/town/museum, get off at Williton and wander around the DEPG site on its Open Days (which of course are not very often) etc. Washford is a bit of a unknown quantity, given that the eviction of the S&DRT has left no on-site attraction and not everyone will want to (say) walk to Cleeve Abbey and back. But what will a full(er) length L&BR be able to offer its passengers other than the ride and the view?

Rebuilding the whole line, rebuilding a full set of L&BR locomotives and carriages, then just sitting back and running steam trains 'in isolation' simply will not provide enough to ensure its ongoing future.

 

I agree with this comment. Currently the Unique Selling Point of the L&B is that you can travel in carriages similar to those which existed when the railway was built. This is fine for the current length of the line and for when the line is extended to Wistlandpound But I would contend that this will not acceptable for much longer journeys.

I would also say that we should concentrate our efforts is getting this bit of line constructed with all the infrastructure planned as part of this project. The long-term objective of the trust is the total reconstruction of the line but this will tke some time. Desisions about the type of coaching stock can be made nearer the time.

 

Possibly. But there seems to be an unfortunately modernist assumption that form follows function, when the reality is that heritage appearance can be achieved despite modern design and features.

 

Going by what I was told last Sunday at the railway, I would suggest that the anti-green feeling is now firmly 'developed'. And yes, the preferred colour scheme does have an amazing similarity to that of the original GWR !!!

 

That's a shame.

 

"Despite"? That sounds uncharacteristically downbeat of you there!

An earlier post mentioned the adaptation of ex-No.15, now serving as FR No.14. From the outside, height aside, it's origins are clear enough. With a certain serendipity, the livery currently worn isn't a million miles away from that displayed on the (superbly) recreated stock at Woody Bay .... and a lot closer than the 'as found' colours displayed on No.2 at the NRM (surely there must be any number of carriages out there unlikely to ever reach the front of the restoration queue to demonstrate the 'as found' conditions our C&W magicians work with?).

I do seem to recall something on the cost of 'restoring' an L&B carriage, from one surviving door handle .... wasn't it something north of £¼ million a pop? That's some serious money!

There's also the model adopted by the Corris, where modern construction methods are used to produce carriages visually indistinguishable from what went before, even if the sound in motion is distinctly different from the one surviving original still earning a crust a couple of valleys over!

I wonder ..... would the sentiments expressed by some concerning the L&B, if applied to the resurrection of the Ffesterbahn back in the day, have resulted in trains of corridor bowsiders plying their trade between Porthmadog and Blaenau? Or an expanded fleet of recreated NWNGR carriages doing their bit on the longer run to Caernarfon?

When all's said and done, in that respect, it's just a coat of paint.

 

Yes. The second time will be no problem.

 

Yes I think the lack of railway wheels may make the ride a bit rough

 

Wait a minute please - the original L & B had two observation cars (Nos 1 and 2) when the railway was first built, being 1897 versions of these Festiniog vehicles with an observation saloon with open sides, and which would have had open ends, but it was decided to deviate from the plans and glaze these ends. The local paper (North Devon Herald 17 March 1898) talks about a 'first' saloon . . . . . . luxuriantly fitted up and open at one end, balcony style, with movable seats from which the passengers can view either portion of the line ahead or at the sides and rear at pleasure.' A picture showing Thomas Hewitt (later Sir) and Sir George Newnes sitting in these seats in the saloon was taken at Bratton Station on the opening celebration day ('Celebration' page 34) And another with Mr and Mrs Jeune in 'Branch line to Lynton' plate 98. An article in the South Western Gazette (the LSWR staff Magazine) of 1 August 1905 refers to these sections as Smoking Compartments , because smoking was only allowed in open compartments such as these and third class open centre No 7 you refer to, and compartments indicated by amber SMOKING lettering in the glass. 'The smoking compartments have movable armchairs which revolve and sliding windows have been placed in the sides and ends of the compartments to afford passengers an uninterupted view of magnificent scenery through which the line passes.' There were also two further coaches with first class open sides but closed ends - Nos 3 and 4. Since 1898 the sides had sliding windows put in because of complaints about sparks. The proposal drawings for Nos 1 and 2 with a central bench seat were just that - proposals. Later the revolving seats were removed and replaced by seats at the sides, similar to those in adjacent saloon, reached by a sliding door in the event of inclement weather. See my drawings in 'Measured and Drawn' pages 30/31 and page 48.

So I think you could say the Festiniog's observation cars are nothing new. You can visualise what these observation saloons would have looked like in 1898 by looking at coach No 2 on display at the NRM at York. (or you could until it was temporarily(?) screened off for the refurbishment)

There are plans of the L & B Trust to replicate the sister to No 2, but the queue has been jumped by the recreation of Open Centre No 9, a sister to No 7 . The link you have given has not been updated for this decision.

 

If I recall correctly the Garratt idea was floated before the WHR got hold of theirs, There are still a couple at the Exmoor Steam Railway Centre which I believe came from the aborted North Yorkshire Moors Robing Hood bay scheme.

A number of alternatives have been suggested since then. Based on the economic plan of rebuilding the railway and strengthening the UPS of the railway as well as working with-in the objects of the L&BR Trust or the 762 Club remits.

 

I'll go with "despite", because the temptation is to use modern style to go with modern engineering practice and, for many, "pastiche" is an insult rather than a compliment.

 

Two things I need to correct you about:-

1 The tourist coach project came from the board of the Trustee a few years ago, as that is what they had asked me to look in to for them, I am just gathering the information so they can take the project forward so it was not my idea.

2 As for the Diesels, again I have been asked by the Trust to supply them with all the information I can find about the alternatives that have or were available. It has been a long standing request to source a suitable bogie diesel similar to those on the FR/WHR for North Devon, but again people have been asked in the past and they have done bugger all about it so again don't shoot the messenger.

As for my preferred view of the L&BR it is well known that I would like to see us built the last Train that ran on the L&BR as the next project we took on, ie two Manning Wardles (LEW and YEO) plus the nine coaches for an estimated £3.5 to 4 million pound which should cover that.

Again you have to realise that there is a fine line between having the heritage set up or the commercial operation involved here. There are just two ways to pay for all of this it is either from yourselves or other people. which is it to be? I am sure the L&BR Trust will welcome your donations to the funds if you want them to built more heritage stock.

As an estimate to rebuild all the old L&BR stock as it was in 1935 will cost around £15 million pounds, so which one of you will donate that much to make it happen?

 

Just a thought here, but on the 'non-heritage thundrbird' front ..... wouldn't a joint effort by several lines be more beneficial all-round? Just thinking aloud here, but within the sort of kinetic envelope we're talking about, there's scope for something useful to not just the BMR, L&B, F&WHR, VoR but regauged, to the W&L and possibly even the IMR and MER.

Left to me, forget diesels, I'd be talking to the likes of Mitsubishi about fuel cells.

 

Whereas your Swiss-style vinyl-clad modern carriages with full compliance with interoperability regulations are presumably free?

The critical question isn't how much a heritage rake will cost, but how much more (or less) than a modern alternative that would be. It feels to me like you are bandying round big numbers to frighten people away from trying to stay true to the heritage vision of the L&B. It's going to be expensive - but it will still be expensive if you rebuild it with (in my view rather soulless) modern rolling stock.

Tom

 

Simply because to us lot, a proper train pulled by a proper loco is the "be-all and end-all", it doesn't follow that will be true of that non-terminally infected proportion of visitors to any line.

There's also the "p" word, which I observe doesn't feature in any of your arguments ..... "pastiche". Restoring, maintaining and operating historic kit ain't the same as building new stock for a new market, where no line has existed for over 8½ decades.

 

Tom the biggest problem we have is no one is being honest about the cost of this project. Many years ago a Ffestiniog member estimates it would cost the L&BR between £5 to 7.5 million per mile to rebuild. I don't expect to have a finite figure in my hand but I do expect to be able to find out just how much all of this could cost.

I know for instance that a heritage L&BR coach costs around the £150,000 a go and a Manning Wardle is estimated at about £1million pound a pop and a guestimate per heritage bogie wagon around £100,000.

I don't know the break down cost of how much it is to lay say 100 meters of 50ib rail /track, but I do wonder just how many people really understand what it costs to build a railway

Every one was amazed when LYN rolled out of Keef's in record breaking time, 7 years from start to finish with funds from a large membership. So far that has never been beaten.

I should have said that if it this is to be successful you need to apply both business and project management thinking to it.

 

But you wouldn't need to lay any permanent way. A much cheaper and simpler option. How fast will they go?