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P2 Locomotive Company and related matters

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by class8mikado, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    But isn't Prince of Wales actually named for the Aircraft Carrier regardless of which Royal family member holds the title, and your email might be considered to be muck raking? .
    I sent an email to the trust ahead of the construction of the locomotive outlining points to look out for, almost all of which were conclusions they arrived at themselves ( i guess) and adopted... they didnt take on board my most radical suggestion of a 6ft 1/2 inch wheel and reducing both the height and length of the thing, and they didn't reply to my email either.... but as i dont contribute to the project fair enough.
     
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  2. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    There is also a new Prince of Wales. In heraldic terms, the people who should be out of joint would be the scots or the NI, as the heir apparent is titled wales. The popularity or otherwise of the title in Wales as such will be driven entirely by politics

    Tbh, the email smacks of driving an agenda, and there is nothing to be gained by the trust answering. I suspect you will get a bland email at some point.
     
  3. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting statement. Do the records held at the NRM confirm this?
     
  4. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    There seems to have been a recurrent problem with air leakage around the base of the boiler casing having a detrimental effect on thermal efficiency when the locomotive was traveling at speed. This was never satisfactorily remedied.
    That, coupled with the less than optimal firing method for such a boiler, seem to have been the principal sticking points.
     
  5. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Once again: the locomotive is named primarily after the aircraft carrier. For Scottish duties it can carry the name Duke of Rothesay (which I think it should carry anyway).
     
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  6. JBTEvans

    JBTEvans Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of their being an aircraft carrier, it is the origin of the title that should be thought about.
     
  7. JBTEvans

    JBTEvans Well-Known Member

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    The A1 Trust should be thinking about the origins of the title. To not respond is rude. My email was polite and wished them well with the build.
     
  8. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    According to a highly qualified boiler designer he believed that the low gas velocities through the boiler could have been a problem. This does not appear to have been the case since the boiler steamed well enough once the injectors were able to function properly. Yarrow were not fools, they were experimenting with a boiler pressure of 1,200 psi in 1929. The boiler for 10000 took time to design and was not of the usual Yarrow pattern and is felt to have more in common with the Woolnough three drum boiler but again it can be seen as a development of the Brotan- Deffner with the firebox extended. It was not a marine boiler but was designed for locomotive use. So how can the firing method be incorrect?
    The inability of the injectors to meet boiler demand was not a fault of the injectors but it was down to the steam supply, or rather lack of it, to these devices. Putting it simply there was an error in the design of the steam supply and the pipework originally fitted was too small in diameter to pass the amount of steam required by the injectors (and other ancillaries) to make these items function in a satisfactory manner. A boiler is going to give the impression that it is not capable of an adequate evaporation rate if it cannot be fed with sufficient feed water. Unfortunately it took a long time to identify the problem and the time spent trying to correct the non existent injector problem did mean that less important matters were not addressed.
    It was acknowledged that cladding design needed further refinement and this work would have presented no problems. Work on the gas ducting was taking place and the flow was going where it needed to go but the scheme was not quite satisfactory and more development was possible. Was the flow good enough? Perhaps, but it was capable of improvement There are all sorts of "facts" used when discussing this engine which are, to say the least debatable, the boiler was said to suffer from excessive build up of ash in the air ducts and smokebox. Who wrote this and why? On the 15th January 1930 there was a full inspection of the the boiler in these areas conducted by Shop Boiler Inspector Lowther accompanied by T Ferguson and the worst that they found was "a heap of ashes 1" deep". Some say that the engine suffered from leaking tubes, it might have done and since the methods of repair for this boiler were non-standard and this might have been felt to be a problem by the shop floor, but leaking tubes, stays and seams are a way of life when dealing with the Stephenson boiler. The boiler was inspected on 2nd January 1930 and in this inspection there is no mention of leaking tubes and in the file of papers held there is no mention of leaking tubes. There are photographs of the boiler with the cladding removed and the written report on the boiler is very satisfactory. The dust was found to be much smaller than that found in the Pacific locomotives and it was suggested that a vacuum cleaner would be very useful for cleaning between the tubes. And if you are wanting anything worse you won't find it. The whole boiler was found to be in very good condition.
    The problem for 10000 was the development of the A1 and A3 classes. It was a one off experimental project being built by a company which needed more money to see development through. The LNER did not have sufficient money but the P.O. and SNCF did.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  9. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Why not post it here then?
     
  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Indeed,it might help some of us to understand which side of the axe you want to grind so to speak. Would it help if it was named in Welsh? Or referred to a genuinely Welsh Prince, or perhaps wasn't named as such at all.? Not Keen on the name anyway myself...
     
  11. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Is this the objection to the name? From the Encyclopaedia Britannica:
     
  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Leaving aside the 'royalist issue', nor am I. For crying out loud, I've got greater historic associations with Wales than the P2 class! The loco's Duke of Rothsay 'alternate' seems infinitely better suited to a class member .... even if Wolf of Badenoch was my favourite of all the original names!
     
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  13. meeee

    meeee Member

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    "Prince of Wales" is an immensely dull and stuffy name. I'm surprised that is what they chose when the other engine is called "Tornado". Whilst Wolf of Badenoch is a bit more intresting, I'm not sure naming a loco after a serial rapist is very marketable.
     
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  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Now that I didn't know. Pity, as it's still a great sounding name ....
     
  15. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    The A1SLT do seem to like military associations, hence one locomotive named after an aircraft and another after an aircraft carrier. Highlander is much the same, think how many 'Deltics' had that in their name - I count four: 55 004/016/019/021.
     
  16. blink bonny

    blink bonny Member

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    This Prince of Wales was far from 'dull and stuffy'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Prince_of_Wales_(53)
     
  17. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    See also the Prince of Wales who went on to briefly become Edward the VIII - quite the playboy, hanging around the swish 'places to be seen' in the 1920s and 1930s...
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Berchtesgaden? Swish? Dunno, but some jolly nice views of the Obersalzburg. :Pompus:
     
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  19. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    I rather had in mind the likes of the Monseigneur Club in Piccadilly, where he would dance to Roy Fox and his band...
     
  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I didn't know the aircraft carrier was going to be renamed every time she visited a Scots port... [grin]
     
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