Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Not really, to me it would simply say that the loan was on far better terms than could be found commercially (Forbes in June, average business loans UK, 7-14%).
We are lucky to have members who are able to help out in such a way in my opinion.

 

I think you worry too much. Thing is, you say it will take time but how long are you going to sit there raising that substantial capital base. When do you say we "have enough". Meanwhile opportunities arise and have to be acted on otherwise a deal may slip again for a generation or even two.
In many way any project as complex as this will be hand to mouth and no matter if its the Trust, EA or YVT, or otherwise, there will always be fund raising projects and appeals and various deals both commercially and from members to obtain the various pieces needed to achieve what is aimed to be done.
In the last few years including the pandemic period we have come through and now the cost of living crisis, across the L&B family we have obtained OSHI, we have Parracombe Halt, we have Bratten Fleming, we have various other bits of land recently obtained by EA, that's a substantial move forward on many fronts for the railway and in my opinion is not bad going considering all were pretty much opportunistic purchases in pretty rough times.

 

Michael, i believe the Parracombe appeal started at £450k which was from funds not specific to the appeal itself

 

We are. Though the reliance on a loan at all is a concern - and doesn’t address the concerns raised by @Tobbes about the preferential treatment of the lender relative to those who were being asked to bear risk as shareholders.


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@21B - it still doesn't explain why the Trust accepted a worse deal for the Trust's own investment that it gave to a CIC Director.

 

Thanks Andy. I suggested the £450k must have come in in January because the analysis of funds on page 22 of the accounts at 31.12.2022 shows no other fund large enough to have contained it. So if it was not in the Trust, it must have been somewhere else.

 

I can think of at least one logical reason for doing so - though granted I've got no idea if it's what happened.

If the Trust sorted it's own terms on which it was prepared to put in money *first*, and then had a late offer from an individual on the other terms without which the money wouldn't have been there to make the purchase, for example.

If it was the other way around then there'd be more to see absolutely.

 

Not my role to explain

 

@21B unless you're the Trust treasurer or the Trust Chairman, then no, it's not, and I wasn't suggesting that it is.

None of which gets us any closer to an answer, of course.

 

No it doesn’t. I was just observing that the loan appears to me to be pretty satisfactory and have nothing I would question about it. As the parent company with presumably some degree of control I am not surprised if the terms of the arrangement from the trust are different and possibly more generous. I don’t at this point see these arrangements as being anything to be concerned about or further evidence of poor management by the trust. More information might change that view of course, but I don’t think we ought to fall into the trap of believing that everything the board has done needs picking apart. Of course the problem is of their making in that the board has engendered an air of mistrust.

 

I'd be delighted to be able to take everything the Board said at face value, @21B , but sadly we're not in this position.

My concern is the lack of clarity around the exposure of the Trust to OSHI - not, for clarity, because I want OSHI/LBBC to fail, I very much want it to suceed - but because until we understand the risks to the Trust if OSHI were to get into diffculties, it makes it very difficult to understand whether plans are credible or not.

 

I wouldn’t advocate for either extreme really. Neither take everything at face value nor be sceptical of everything. The latter can be corrosive if for justifiable reasons the information annoy be shared.

Now having said that, the board find itself being regularly disbelieved because they have been dishonest about a number of “basics”. That is their fault entirely and I don’t trust them as far as I could throw them, but we also have to remain focused because they do not deserve to be let off the hook they’ve made for themselves, and chasing the things they might have got right might allow them to wriggle free.

 

I agree @21B , I just want a leadership who are trustworthy with a viable plan we can all get behind. The last thing in the world I joined the L&B for is this managerial nonsense, I want to rebuild a railway. Unfortunately, until we get decent management, I'm afraid we'll acheive very little on the extension south from Woody Bay.

 

First of all you can never have enough cash with a project of this size. Yes you are correct that by having a number of smaller fund raising initiatives it will prolong the funding base, however it has to be realised that in our case these initiatives need to also be reasonable big and we should not try to run any other funding project while we have one of this size on the go.

Just how long will it take well that depends on who you have running the scheme and also since we will be starting from scratch building up all the contacts we need to make this a success. It might work out up to two years before you started to see any money coming into the project but most of these big funding projects have one advantage over us, in that they have a list of people who would have indicated in the past they would support them.

As far as I know we don't have anyone in that category at present. That is why I am working on the basis that to have enough capital to cover everything we need to rebuild the railway I have estimated it to be around £10million pounds per mile.

 

£10 mil per mile??

 

Even the best laid plans can go awry, eg Bala Lake. Personally I think we will make progress sooner if we pull together and work with the Trust rather than this seemingly endless constant against. Just my opinion of course.

 

@DaveE - it is about trust in the leadership, who have squandered it with their actions. Not pursuing what look increasingly like personal vendettas with Trust funds would be a good start.

 

If you add it it all up for just Woody Bay we have spent yes spent almost £9 million todate and that is not even 1 mile so I think £10 million is not a bad estimate this would include the purchase of all the land at and around Woody Bay, your coaches, LYN and AXE, also the Diesel locos and the railway installation costs. Not forgetting the workshop and also you can add the cost for the new tea room as well, so it all soons adds up and if you want to be more accurate you should also include the costs incurred for the Parracombe extention as well.

Unlike some I have not yet seen an estimate for less that £200million in total for the full rebuild Oh and that figure also includes volunteer labour I dread to think what it would cost us if it was done on a full commercial basis.

 

I'm sure that £10M per mile is on the high side. The GCR have spent around £4M so far on the "Gap" project which is about 1/2 mile but includes a new bridge over the Midland Main Line, Canal bridge refurb, new bridge over the A 60. It still need Factory Flyover bridging and two embankments plus track and signalling.
Whilst the L & B will need some major infrastructure, a lot is relatively straight forward.
It is still a lot to be raised, but by steadily buying parcels of land where possible and hopefully getting increasing viability, progress will be maintained.

 

I think some value engineering will have to be done. £200m is believable in terms of the budget, but very difficult to imagine raising that amount of money. Even spread over 40 years that’s £5m per year and I am not sure there is any heritage railway managing that consistently. The revenue stream from actually running the line is likely only to keep it maintained and not to contribute much to the capital expenditure.

As an aside, it has always concerned me a bit that the L and B had ambitions bigger than its fundraising capability.