Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

This bit in particular.

There would be a fair amount of holiday makers I should imagine who would drive up from Combe Martin, Watermouth, Hele and Ilfracombe, additionally those driving in from the A361 as day trippers could turn onto the A399 and miss Barnstaple altogether by cutting the corner off. No one goes into Barnstaple and especially at peak times if you can help it, it's grid locked.

Blackmoor as a P&R for Lynton & Lynmouth, plus for hikers and bikers going further into Exmoor could get very busy very quickly early on in a morning than Barnstaple would.

So your first train is possibly a P&R into Lynton, which the begins the cycle. At the same time the first train into Barnstaple leaves Blackmoor or maybe slightly earlier, and picks up the first passengers in Barnstaple for the long haul up to Lynton. This also takes any P&R passengers who are maybe going to Whistlandpound or maybe Chelfham for walks etc.

 

I didn’t say that Barnstable would be the main originating station, I said that I imagined it could be. There are well defined ways of determining the likelihood of this being the case, but my guess would be a 60/40 or more split in favour of the biggest twin on the future line.

I think there are very good arguments for having the running shed in the same location as the works for at least one of the “ends”. Placing the works in the middle of a 20 mile line is about the worst solution. Remember that the complexity of operation will increase at the square of the length of line pretty much. Building carriages 100s of miles from a one mile line might be fine. Maintenance of a fleet of 5 or 6 locomotives and probably 30 carriages is an entirely different issue.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree there because I can quite easily see neither "end" being the start of the daily operation.

 

Sorry, Dave, excuse my ignorance but what is a "P & P" ?

 

Apologies, Park and Ride. My mistake, should be P&R.

I've edited my posts accordingly,

Thank you!

 

I agree, but I think the most important factor seems to have been left out of this discussion : Staff ! By the time the railway is full length and operating daily there will be a need for permanent staff as well as volunteers. Will it be easier to get all the necessary staff in Barnstaple (or Lynton !) or should we plan to accommodate them at OSHI or run a set of minibuses to collect and deliver workers from their homes, or what ? Has any thought been given to this ?

 

Back on Planet Woody Bay. How are we going to get Killington Lane to Blackmoor completed? Suggestions and ideas to Mr Peter Miles, c/o Woody Bay Station, Martinhoe.

 

I can see why that might be, but am concerned that this answer is being determined by facilities, not traffic expectations.

Taking pre-1935 running times as my guide, you’d be talking about a 9:00 train from Blackmoor to make a 10:00 from Pilton work in the timetable; that’s an early start for a normal service time from a major traffic source - but if you make it a 10:00 start from Blackmoor, that’s pushing Barnstaple traffic back to 11:00 before it can start - which is quite late for day trips.

The same challenge, by the way, applies to Lynton - more so if that 11:00 doesn’t reach Lynton till the afternoon.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Money no object thought: if the railway gets back to Pilton, it could rebuild the loco and carriage sheds. These could be used for running repairs while also providing stock for a train starting at the Barnstaple end. The engineering works would remain at Blackmoor.

Something else to mull over (and i know this will be anathema to some), but, has anyone considered that perhaps restoring the entire line might be too much, given issues with planning, deviations, land ownership, attracting enough volunteers etc.
While I'm sure we would all love to see the complete route reinstated as far as possible, is it more pragmatic to reinstate a shorter section, say Blackmoor to Lynton or Woody Bay to Lynton? The remaining trackbed could be purchased when it became available and used as a permissive footpath with the option to reinstate the railway at a future date if circumstances permit.
Discuss!

 

It's always important to remember on here that behind an innocuous handle may be a whole career of expertise, and @21B makes a series of points which suggests that these points are not merely theoretical chunterings of an armchair enthusiast....

What this interesting discussion does highlight for me is that we need to have a proper plan based which includes the railway's role, an outline timetable and from this, what the best way of servicing this is. It is wholly possible that this has been done, but given everything that has happened, it is sensible to revisit it as part of an open and inclusive debate across the L&B family. For instance:

- Is the park and ride option still meaningful with a WB or Caffyns terminus?
- What does service to Lynton look like?
- How close to Lynton can we realistically get?

More broadly, what sort of service over the line do we want? Is this a WHR with a few long trains over the whole line each day, or a more intensive service? What is the market that we're seeking to serve? Will families really want to take a day trip from Pilton to Lynton(ish) if it's a 2 hour slog in each direction?

None of this is to say that the current plan is wrong; it is to say that any plan is a living document and needs to be subject to periodic revision as circumstances change and to check that the assumptions it is based on are still valid. Now seems like an excellent time to do that.

 

Good morning!

Personally I think we have to put aside the timetables of pre-1935. The dynamics of the railway in as much as passengers is going to be quite different now due to higher mobility by car and road, plus the proposed Park and Ride at Blackmoor for Exmoor, Lynton and Lynmouth.

Once that Park and Ride becomes established I think it could become fairly busy quite early on in the mornings.

So perhaps the first train to Barnstaple being something like 8.50am. This would get into Barnstaple I should imagine somewhere around 9.25am? Remember we won't be stopping for goods loading and unloading which was scheduled into the pre-1935 timetables. This would have the early bird passengers who may stop and get off at places along the line for picnins, walking and hiking. This would then rest at Barnstaplefor a turnaround leave of somewhere perhaps around 9.45am-10.00am for the first day trippers up to the Moor and Lynton.

If the Lynton train leaves at the same time it should I imagine arrive in Lynton somewhere around the same time, somewhere around 9.30am with the early bird passengers from the Park and Ride.

These two become the basis of the schedule, running back and forth passing at Blackmoor.

As the day goes on additional trains maybe needed, depending on how the behaviour of the modern tourist and traveller in the modern world.

I can certainly see a running shed to hold one engine and perhaps two or three carriages might be needed at Pilton but it's only for overnight holding, the main works being at Blackmoor due to extra rolling stock that maybe needed between the Park and Ride and Lynton. Otherwise all that stock has to go to Barnstaple for maintenance, testing and repairs?

All in all the Park and Ride is what has changed the dynamics of the line, along with perhaps the attraction of the picnic area at Whistlandpound.

People won't just have the focus of going from Barnstaple to Lynton as it would have once been with the stations inbetween more for local traffic. Many today will be using those interim stations as starting points for walks and going out into the countryside.

 

It certainly is an interesting discussion.

I don't think having a Park and Ride to Caffyns is going to be any benefit at all, Caffyns is still many miles from Lynton, the primary objective of the Park and Ride, and to alleviate the need for more parking spaces in Lynton. Having a Park and Ride at Caffyns, I'm not sure the ENPA would look favourably on that due to the fact that having the Park and Ride at Blackmoor ticks the boxes of having the Park and Ride at the gateway to Exmoor and reduces traffic within the National Park itself and along the A39 northwards from Blackmoor.

Having a WHR type service with longer trains isn't really possible, our station platforms cannot take those length of trains, 4 carriages, maybe 5 at a push at some stations.

The length of time to run from Barnstaple to Lynton shouldn't in my view be 2 hours, that's only 10mph. I should imagine our running speed would be closer to 20mph by then, which at 19 miles including stops of which some could be request only (eg Parracombe, Bratton Fleming, etc,) we may see Barnstaple to Lynton at around 1hr 10-15?

I think it also depends on the type of experience we wish to give visitors, are we just going to be a people mover which the Park and Ride from Blackmoor to Lynton may be viewed as such, or a back in time journey taken lazily through the countryside which may be more suitable for the whole length of the line.

Looking at Ffestiniog and WHR it takes 1hr 10mins form Port to Bleanau, 14 miles, at a leisurely pace so people can enjoy the journey.

Perhaps you need a mix of express and leisure journeys?

 

Sadly Tapatalk has mangled the quality! The point I was making is still clear I believe. If you want the original then:

https://planning.northdevon.gov.uk/Planning/Display/60676,

select 'documents' & scroll down to:

60676_Landscape-Masterplan_160202.pdf

Sent from my SM-T575 using Tapatalk

 

Barnstaple is gridlocked mainly through the rush hour times as are many larger towns i expect. the usual other cause is sadly someone who feels so low they look at the bridge as the only way out, the majority of other times Barnstaple traffic moves pretty freely and day trippers are usually aiming for Saunton and Croyde beaches or towards Bideford, Westward ho! ect all accessed via Barnstaple

 

@DaveE , a very interesting post, which needs careful consideration and which I don't have time to do justice to just now. In haste, however, my thinking was this. Station stops at Snapper, Chelfham, Bratton, Wistlapound, Blackmoor, Parracombe, Woody Bay and Caffyns should be about 4 mins per stop in a timetable - familes, those with restricted mobility, bikes in Van 23 all take longer than commuters - and allowing a couple of minutes to slow down and again to mins to get back to 25 mph gives eight mins per station call - which is 64 mins (there's a saving between Wistlapound and Blackmoor as they're closer together than this suggests). Then add in running time over 18 miles at 20 mph average you can quickly see how the 1935 timetable featured a running time of 90 mins or so end to end. To be honest, I'd expect our end to end timetabled time to be in the 100 - 110 minute range given the extra time at station stops.

 

A couple of years ago Bob Barnard did some work on projected timetables and running times - when I get chance I will dig around in my copies of the old draft design paperwork and see what I may find.

The maximum line speed was set at 25MPH - as you might expect - with a realisation that it would be slower on uphill gradients. I forget now whether we set 10 or 5 MPH for the speed within station limits, especially where tablet exchanges were to take place.

Based on guidance from the Board etc, minimum platform length was set at 5 coaches and minimum lengths for passing loops at 6 coaches + 2 engines (allowing for double-heading or a 2nd engine rescuing a failed train). It was recognised that whilst new-builds (eg BR) would match the latter, existing locations (eg WB) might need a later upgrade if/when possible.

 

I was using the actual running times in the appendices to Catchpole, and allowing time for running round etc. Unless I’m missing something, I’m not expecting those running times to change much - it’s the length of stops that will change end to end journey times.

I said before, and repeat, that I don’t necessarily disagree with you on where the commercial centre of the railway will be, or how traffic will be distributed. My questions are about what that means and how the railway will then work.

If the first train leaves Blackmoor at 9 to provide the morning train to Barnstaple, what time must lighting up happen? If that’s, say, at 7:00, then an 8 hour crew shift would finish at 3pm. That suggests that the railway would need to work across two shifts - shifts that are lengthened by having to start and finish in the middle. And those shifts will need people like signallers, not just train crew.

Getting under the skin of what that means in terms of staffing therefore matters. Will the volunteers be available? How many paid staff would be needed on establishment? What does that mean in terms of how many seats need to be sold? What is then required for motive power and coaching stock to carry those passengers? Will the signalling allow “switching out”?

If satellite sheds are built (so akin to the NYMR at New Bridge), what does that mean in terms of land purchase and buildings? How will that affect neighbours? Will the site be secure?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You wouldn't get away with 2 hrs from signing on to first train. It's not just the preparation time, it's any shunting to get the train off shed and into the platform. For example, on the Bluebell we allow 30 minute even if the carriages are left in the platform or are a straight run out of the Newick siding into the platform; probably 45 minutes if they have to be shunted out of the running shed which involves an additional reversal and run-round. Same again at the end of today; and you probably need to allow about 60 minutes from a last rival to a booking off time. For prep-times t would be interesting to know what the railway currently allows, but bear in mind that even if the boiler is smaller than on standard gauge, you've still typically got as many oiling points! So it depends on the logistics of where stock is left, run-rounds etc, but a first departure at 9am is going to mean booking on somewhere in their region of 5:30 - 6am. (Did someone mention overnight volunteer accommodation? )

Also worth noting that signalmen need a shorter shift, so in some cases where you need a split loco crew shift, teh signalmen and guard might only need one. For example, the loco crew might need to book on at 6am, but the signalman doesn't need to start until 8am to allow an 8:30am off shed for a 9am first train. Similarly, the signalman can book off as soon as the loco is back on shed, at which point the loco crew probably still have at least another 30 - 60 minutes of work. So typically the signalman might have a day that is about 2.5 hours shorter, which might be sufficient to allow what would be a double shift for loco crew into a single shift for guard, station staff and signalmen.

4 minutes at stations sounds quite generous to me given likely passenger numbers (which can't be huge simply because of train capacity) - we allow 2 minutes if there is nothing to cross.

It is crossing that takes time, but generally you'd aim for "first in, last out" with the first arrival coming in from the opposite end to the signal box - well that's the ideal. That typically means the first in is likely to need about 8 minutes; and the second arrival can be in and out in about 2 minutes. The first in probably needs to have arrived about 4 minutes before the second to allow the signalman time for the necessary token work so as not to delay the second.

That does mean you probably get slightly unbalanced end-to-end times, depending on the precise disposition of your signal boxes. For example, on the Bluebell, an "up" train takes 40 minutes with four minutes (two stops of two minutes each) of intermediate stops, which is about as fast as is possible while still remaining within a 25mph limit; whereas 'down" trains typically take about 50 minutes; the extra being the crossing allowance in the middle.

Tom

 

Thanks Tom, that's very interesting.

 

What would the L&B have been like had it survived into the post-war era? I suspect that a hybrid operation would have been in place, diesel and steam traction. If the future first/last (commuter) train out of Barnstaple (and Lynton) each morning was an alternative, modern-ish image train - dmu or emu for example, and the steam locos stabled at BG, take over the more tourist-oriented services. This would seem offer a pragmatic approach to operation in the longer term.

[Update: to clarify, by "commuter" I'm not envisioning any major traffic, but if there is a reliable, regular daily service from Barnstaple (and Lynton) to Blackmoor, L&B staff/volunteer living near either of the termini will be able to reach their allotted workplaces, and other users may well take to using the service as non-tourists. I live in hope]