WCME/CME 2024

Well let's hope you're right. It will be interesting to see how the next few load. Meanwhile I'm sure Mr Shireman will be open to offers.

 

Oh I think there is some luck involved. The ORR/NR don’t have to allow these specials on their Network at all, and with a modern operating system I’m considering it lucky they do!

 

I wouldn’t say it’s lucky I’d say it’s playing by the rules, West Coast have been certainly pushing their luck recently and have been found out to have not been playing by the rules.

Seriously Harry you know how things work even on the small railways, it’s not just luck is it?

 

Feel sorry for them??? Its not as if this hasn't been coming for some time..... they just choose to ignore getting their stock compliant.

 

Okay, so why have LSL bought and CDL-fitted a train load of Mk1s if it is not about the experience for all travelers? They should've just used the Mk3s sat in KR CS.

 

That's true but I think the ORR is getting too big for its boots on the ( generally very safe) Rail side of things and completely ignoring the vastly more dangerous Road element. More tue on the National Network than preserved lines and heritage trains who do get some special consideration. Onerous single- minded safety and wheelchair regulations make rail passengers face inconvenience, expense, short trains, dentist-style seats that limit the view or ability to know where you are, insufficient toilets etc. See Modern Railways especially Alan Williams's columns. Meanwhile road vehicles are now far too wide for most of our roads or car spaces ( Which? Recently highlighted 3 bloated monstrosities that could not possibly fit regular spaces), many lorries are too high to fit under railway bridges without causing "bridge bashes" causing huge delays and risk to life of railway passengers and it's the rail companies have to pursue damages and improvements! And what RATIONAL reason are there no legal restrictions on the top speed of road vehicles or their safety in respect of collisions with pedestrians or other road users?
And as for level crossings...
Sorry, rant over - but these points should be made more loudly. And don't expect it from politicians posturing to the low end of the national press, unless we the likes of us do it...

 

None of which alters the fact that ORR are the rail regulator, are bound by the law, and have the authority to set regulations even if operators dislike them.

Going back to @1020 Shireman's decision not to travel, it is an entirely rational choice for a traveller with specific interests. In just the same way, when I had Covent Garden tickets for Verdi's "Un Ballo in Maschera" with Pavarotti due to sing Gustavo, many people decided not to attend when he no showed, because the experience was going to be materially different.

The question then becomes the promoter's response. Covent Garden allowed refunds for those who cancelled, and also reduced ticket prices to the "normal" level (as a student, my seat was in the Slips, I got £10 reduced to £7!); I think some compromise on the normal "no refund" policy would be reasonable - especially where regular customers are concerned.

 

RTC aren't totally unblameworthy in all this either, they went to the trouble to change all the wording on their website removing references to Mk1 and Pullman carriages. Sneaky.

Yes their T&Cs saw the TOC may impose changes etc but I feel they could have done better.

A partial refund or a discount offer on another booking would've been good gesture.

Hopefully I am not wrong, but the GB is still saying Mk1s, so hopefully this stock is on a temporary measure basis.

 

Because 75% of those MK3s are sleeper vehicles!

 

Got no sympathy for WCR this time. Don't think CDL is needed but I'm not the regulator.

We booked both WCMEs with RTC in good faith when WCR had an exemption for the Mk1s until the end of February. Unlike other years we didn't book other tours past that date as we normally would have. Kelly knows only too well that you couldn't pay us to travel in that stock. But business is business and we didn't expect a refund, though due to the short notice and change of stock I thought RTC would have had the decency to apologise for the stock change that fundamentally changes the concept of Steam Hauled Trains. I asked why they didn't and got a very terse reply. Why should we expect anything else? We only spent about £16k with them last year. Hardly makes us significant customers.

Personally I think the 27th should have been postponed and passengers who booked in good faith expecting the Mk1 stock should have been contacted to find out if they were happy to travel in the AirCon Mk2s. If not bookings should have been held over. Same for any other bookings made in good faith before the Judicial Review.

 

But that will only apply to a few out of those booked.
Most passengers would not go into or even understand the munitae of the difference between a Mk1 and a Mk2. I expect most of those travelling if they are users of the national network would not even expect there to be opening windows in the first place, in the same way many expect the doors to open by pushing a button,but would probably expect there to be somewhere to charge their mobile or get wifi (at least that seemed to be the case before Covid when I was stewarding a lot).
I accept your needs and would argue they are in the very unique category, not because of the Mk1 issue (which most of us on here would prefer) but regarding the number of seats you book to allow you access to both sides of the train for timing purposes.
I would also ask how many outside the world of our own little bubble knew there was an exemption in existence in the first place when they booked, let alone the JR process or the outcome.
I will agree with your CDL point however I believe that CDL without SDO is far more dangerous than a properly stewarded train under the old regime. But I guess it is just another box the "Office of Riskier Railtravel" has ticked.

 

So the route you’d go down is Postpone Trains, Give Refunds, RYTC have no income, WCR have no income, both companies can’t operate as they have no money, can’t pay staff, etc. I’ve heard there is some vacancies on The Apprentice if you fancy giving business a go

How many passengers actually book for the coaches? I mean how many. Likely enthusiasts only. The % of those won’t be enough to justify cancellation or postponement of a train.

Same at the SVR. We get about 10% of our yearly passengers from enthusiasts. The rest is families, people who’ve never been to a railway, etc.

 

I mean if it’s the same as on the “normal” mainline percentage wise, about 85% just want a train. They don’t care what train, what I looks like, etc they want a train to get them from A to B which is what they booked.

About 9% have some sort of requirements, and are normally disappointed they haven’t been met, but are happy to go from A to B as booked.

6% want the right train, right requirements, etc and will ask for money back if it’s not spot on.

I suspect WCR’s passengers spectrum is not far off the above.

 

Why do you suspect that?

I suspect the markets are pretty different.

Main line--- people with time constraints, different preferences re interchange, a big range of price sensitivity, a wide range of requirements for flexibility and frequency. Fixed rules for refunds and delay repay.

Charters--- train must turn up on time, get to destination, offer an 'authentic' experience as advertised, value added services must be good quality. I would think the biggest market segment is the special occasion one, but obviously there is a big range from Belmond to the Dalesman. A very different clientele.

If a 'small' proportion of the charter traffic has rather specific requirements and wants a refund if they are not met, to my mind that makes it more feasible to deal with the unhappy customers without totally compromising the business. But equally important are the silent ones who won't book until it is a lot clearer what they are actually going to get.

 

I suspect it’s not all that different from having been on these things and that general observation. I can’t speak for Standard, as I do only do Prem Dining. But more half the people I’ve sat opposite, in the same coach as don’t have a clue about railways. Infact they’re surpised half the time they’ve got somebody who works with steam engines, sat opposite. I’ve been asked “Why would you pay this much for a steam train, when you work on them?”

So I think a lot of the market don’t actually care or know about trains. Perhaps it’s different in standard

 

Hmmm, doubt it, doubt those kind of people would be on a railtour. You really do have an answer for everything. Give Gus' job a go!

 

He’s doing a good enough job of his own thanks!