P2 Locomotive Company and related matters

Seems wrong to like this post, but these are the thoughts in my mind too.

 

a Written statement, as to the accident, and photographic evidence of the aftermath, damage, As it was a hit and run, the police, also requested photograths of the location of the car, and damage, so clearly, you are mistaken, and its not clap trap, the insurence company did not even send an assessor out to value the car, instead they asked me to provide photograths of the car from several angles, and it was from these that they decided on the extent of the damage,

 

A close friend of ours has had similar recently, she had an issue that resulted in her vehicle rolling backwards into another vehicle.

She provided pictures of the vehicle(s) in the original predicament that caused the damage, then detailed pictures of the damage to her vehicle.

Assessor didn't even bother coming out to assess it, was written off as a Cat N I believe- that was certainly how it was described when I spotted it on the salvage auction site a few weeks later.

Chris

 

Thank you Chris, so I clearly do know what I am on about, I can only come to one conclusion about this persons posts, clearly I'm an idiot, who knows nothing, where as Mr Osprey is the font of all knowledge and we should all bow to his superior knowledge on all matter, including ones he admits he knows nothing about.

 

I’m probably being foolish entering this current discussion. I’ve seen 60163 close up in the last couple of weeks and I know what the problem is but, even close up I can’t see what the cause of it is and more importantly , why. I certainly haven’t seen any photos that could tell me what that is. Perhaps Martin can tell us exactly what has caused the problem(s) if he knows. Otherwise it’s all speculation.
It would help though if someone who does know put out a formal statement to end all this.

 

Photographic manipulation goes back to the very dawn of photography: I was taught how to do it at school in the 1970s...

 

many of the problems with the original build but they were generally all overcome and only a few people were any the wiser... until they come to light 10 years later...
If I were running the A1 trust, that sort of thing would be waking me up in a cold sweat. There's clearly something very much up, and not being admitted. But it will come out in the wash.
(I'm not an engineer, I sweep up their mistakes, and there's a depressingly small number of routes to failure and a depressingly large number of people who think it won't happen to them...)

 

Martin...stop playing the victim culture for a start. I haven't called you an idiot, and your claim I know everything is ridiculous and unfounded. Please show me where I've stated expertise on boiler design and manufacture ? I simply questioned your reliance on photos in assessing the problem with the A1 and YOUR personal expertise of boiler design and manufacture. You have clearly said you have this experience. As the discussion drifted to motor insurance and supporting evidence, what other supporting evidence did your contact supply with his photos ? As has been stated by others, than me, there's more to this than meets the eye.

 

I think you are reading more into what @Steve said than maybe he meant. I take the important part of what he wrote as "and they were overcome"; which is rather different from "and they are hiding in plain sight ready to wreak havoc years later".

There's a reason why people who maintain locos are called "fitters" - because their job is to make things fit. All the more complex because different parts of a steam loco expand and shrink with temperature changes, and other parts twist and flex with all the asymmetric forces being applied. They aren't steady state systems, they change and evolve over time.

Tom

 

Yes, but when you've already ground several years' use off the driving wheel tyres, have had it under imtermittent repair for the last year, have an unspecified failing grate, I'd be a little les cavalier about this.

I'm sure the workers on the patriot just made things fit, and we see how that's ended up.

The clan and the pat both have had to have serious re-starts following quality issues, why should the A1SLT be immune to this?

If you build a complex thing out of lots of assemblies and everything is built to fit the next part hundreds of small inaccuracies creep in. Usually they cancel each other out, but not always.

The craft foremen who put lots of locos together after a long apprenticeship are all gone, so there's nobody who has the "feel" as to how a whole loco goes together from scratch.

 

Steve, I will agree with you on one point, It would help if the trust were to come clean, as Others have said, and I agree that there is a lot we don't know, and much of it is being hidden, my own point of view is that there have always been historic issues with the boiler, that were never fully overcome, and the redesign of the staying indicates that to be correct, the recent issues, are as much down to a lack of sub contract management for example, the cannon boxes, having to be remade,

 

I’m not doubting there are current issues - but the implication of your earlier post was that the current issues are a direct consequence of problems with the original build, and I am not sure there is any evidence for that. Apologies if that is not what you meant, but that’s how I read it.

Tom

 

A boiler and firebox were made to a drawing and put in the frames and the loco ran for a number of years without any problem. The boiler and firebox were then removed from the frames and overhauled. The boiler and firebox were then put back in the frames, but did not fit. Has anyone got a rule? (I nearly said ruler then)

 

I don't know what went wrong when. Clearly there is a problem the new boiler and it's fitting, but there was also (IIRC) an issue with the rear cartazzi, and lots of long silences.

It might be the new boiler, but until proven, anything could be to blame. My point is that if lots of things that were fixed without being known about, they may have been apparently properly done, and in accordance with all stated tolerances. But now we have a boiler that doesn't fit.

Something is not right. If fixes have been made during construction without reference back to the whole, it's perfectly possible that that could mean the mounting for the boiler is changed.

Big problems usually have multiple causes. In this case, if I were in charge of Tornado (and thank the lord I'm not, sir), I'd now be wondering what else isn't as I think it is, and what consequences they have)

 

Which is where the late David Elliot is sadly missed as he would no doubt have put his finger on what is wrong and also the best way to solve it.

Dave B

 

There's a lot of truth in that last sentence but even having those that knew how to put a loco together didn't mean that things would go smoothly. Someone I knew relatively high up in the Hunslet Engine Co said to me on more than one occasion "When you introduce a new design of loco you can reckon that it will take about five years to iron out all the snags" and that was not just confined to Hunslet. In terms of mining (my area) the most successful underground diesel was the Hudswell 100HP loco with hundreds made. However, when it first came out there were so many problems that Hudswells even contemplated taking the locos already in service back and refunding the NCB for them. In the end, they persevered and the result was a very reliable machine liked by everyone.
Bringing it back to 60163, it may theoretically be an existing design but, underneath the paint, there are so many differences between it and the original locos that it is a new design in virtually everything. There were lots of problems and mistakes made with Tornado, just as there have been with the Patriot and Clan, possibly more. Unlike the latter two, though, who were very open, I think that the A1 Team were very good at keeping things under wraps right from the start. The firebox stay problem leaked out despite attempts to keep it quiet (I got reported for posting about it on Nat Pres ) but I've never seen anything about the fusible plug problems anywhere.

 

My career in machine tools is similar.. flex, expansion et al ..and we have to chase microns of accuracy....

 

But fitters are that, with due respect, they are not engineers...

 

Define an engineer.

 

Dave Elliott....