Kent & East Sussex Railway

I'm sure @Steve can give chapter and verse, but I think one complication is that not all crews, and not all locos, can go to Whitby. As I understand it, it is not unknown for a crew to change loco mid-shift - which then adds to the complexity of (ideally) ensuring they finish where they start rather than have to do a trip "on the cushions". So I think it is the interaction between crew diagrams, loco diagrams and Whitby restrictions that adds complexity.

(By contrast - we'll routinely have three, and sometimes four, locos out at a weekend, but all loco diagrams begin and end at one location, and it is very rare for a crew to finish a shift not where you started it - the East Grinstead Santa diagrams being about the only common example, plus occasionally turns at Branch Line gala. I can count on the fingers of one hand the days I have started a shift on one loco and finished on another, and it is normally for some very abnormal reason).

Tom

 

Thanks - that's not something that had occurred to me.

 

And it only takes one bad incident to convince a volunteer not to come back. Unfortunately, at Mountsorrel we had a volunteer assaulted over a £2 entry fee. Obviously that's a very rare occurrence, but it sticks in the minds of everyone involved for a very long time.

Do you know that they don't? I'm not talking about floods of people, but as has been pointed out, it's only a small minority that care anyway. Who would be reporting if they've handed back one or two tickets?

I'm not really trying to convince anyone one way or the other, all I'm pointing out is that there are reasons for and against. The KESR have their reasons for not, I don't see why they need to be continuously questioned on it.

 

This is all getting really silly, if KESR were really concerned about potential refunds then they are part of a group of six that meet regularly where I think most of the others do publish some sort of roster, or at least readily respond so it would be easy for them to find out any pitfalls etc. As far as we are concerned as a family we only went on this year by going to Bodiam Castle first as NT members and waited to see if steam was turning up before we decided to travel. If as sometimes on our Sussex visit we wanted to go to Tenterden we would want to know when Steam departure was happening before we decided to go or else 4 tickets would be
lost to probably another railway.

 

There's a diagram out there showing the pattern of bullet damage on aircraft that returned to base. The story goes that a lot of investment went into fixing those areas, until someone had the insight to realise that it was the other areas that were being fatally damaged, and needed protection.

The same is true here; it's not the refunds, but the "never purchaseds" that matter - and are difficult or impossible to measure.

 

No doubt, that is truly awful. But that hasn't stopped them charging for entry I imagine...?

Certainly on the GWSR, I would be astonished to hear if we had ever done such a thing. I can just imagine our finance director's reaction!!

 

NYMR Footplate and loco rosters are arranged so that both crews and locos start and end their days at the same location, either New Bridge (Pickering) or Grosmont although they may swap footplates during the day. There are the added complications that not all crews and not all locos can go to Whitby but the diagrams allow for this. Loco rosters are changed at the last minute for any number of reasons. Locos generally have their FTR at Grosmont so, if a New Bridge loco has a fault found it will be swapped for another loco so that it overnights at Grosmont. That isn't usually known until mid afternoon as that's when the FTR is done. Where possible a steam loco is swapped for a steam loco but that isn't always the case. As Tom has mentioned regarding Bluebell locos, each one has a load limit and not all locos can be used on all diagrams. For example, the P1 diagram requires a loco capable of hauling 7 coaches but the P2 diagram is only 4 coaches so a smaller loco, such as 29 or 2392 can be used on that. Let's say, 92134 is on the P1 diagram and 80136 is on the P2 diagram but 92134 requires a spring change and 2392 is the standby. 2392 can't simply substitute so 80136 has to be swapped to the P1 and 2392 put on the P2. That's not as easy as it sounds because the P1 loco is on the last train from Grosmont to Pickering and the P2 loco is already well on its way back to Pickering when the problem arises. In this case the solution might be to bank 2392 with a diesel as far as Goathland and let 2392 go on its own from there. That needs another crew, though, so it might be simpler to put a diesel out on that last train and the first train back in the morning, by which time 92134 would hopefully have been repaired and can take up its duty, again. That's a simple solution but the railway prefers to use steam between Pickering and Grosmont where possible except for a planned diesel diagram on Yellow and Blue T/T's to maintain crew competence.
Another complexity is that not all locos can go to Whitby and those that can have additional electrical equipment that is unfortunately quite prone to failure leading to last minute loco swaps. At the moment the railway is quite short of steam locos so there is more diesel substitution than is liked. Where possible, this is done between Grosmont and Whitby leaving steam between Grosmont and Pickering which may mean using alternative loco diagrams.to allow this to happen. Another, less common reason for diesel loco changes is that not every driver can drive every diesel so a last minute change of driver due to illness may result in a different loco being used.
All this hopefully goes to show that running a heritage steam railway is not as simple as planning what loco you will be using on what train for the next month and sticking to it.

 

I am not away of a single refund at the MHR in the many years I was in a position to know.

 

The K&ESR typical service is 5 return trips a day using two train sets, plus an early train from Bodiam on certain days in the summer plus evening dining and Sunday lunch trains. For ordinary (non dining) passengers there will generally be two steam trains in busier periods and one steam and one diesel (either hauled or DMU) at less busy times. This is indicated on the website.

 

Doesn’t sound out of step, the NYMR is longer than most lines so will be fielding more locos per day on average. Then there’s the complication of not all locos being able to work all diagrams as only some can run to Whitby. NYMR are a relatively large organisation so have the resources to publish and update a loco roster. I can see why smaller ones may choose not to - it’s about how resources are deployed and if it’s a case of chasing gaps in rosters or publishing loco rosters, then even the most hardened of diehard enthusiasts would know where the priority lies.

 

What could they be celebrating in that year?
Surely not S&D 60 right?

 

An update on both of the terriers can be found here:

https://kesr.org.uk/2024/10/31/a-tale-of-two-terriers-update-on-knowle-and-poplar/

Andrew

 

A picture is worth a thousand words... well, this one is worth 4,253..... the boiler has been fitted, hopefully for the last time. Congratulations to all at 4253.

 

By steam crane, if I'm not mistaken

 

The railway is starting their season early this year & will be operating a steam service along with the DMU this weekend.

https://kesr.org.uk/

Cheers

Ben

 

It would be nice to know which trains are steam and which are DMU as well as which steam loco is rostered. As they do not seem to be prepared to offer this info, I’m likely to head to the GCR where I know what’s rostered.

 

It's one of my almost local lines, but it's one I very rarely visit due to the reasons you mention. My own view is that they are looking to serve a market that doesn't include enthusiasts like you and me who have specifc requirements. And like any heritage railway it is totally up to them to decide what is the best way to run a line to ensure it's survival, and not me! So no complaints, I too will just go somewhere else.

Bryan

 

I had to think a bit laterally to find it, but took about five minutes. If you go to the ticket booking page you'll find out which trains are steam or diesel. Check which version of the timetable is in use for the day that you want and scroll down for the detailed timetable. I don't know if there is a loco roster available, but I haven't looked.
Steve B

 

Post on the K&ESR Facebook page confirms the Standard 4 is the loco being used today (presume same again tomorrow)

 

So we see that the KESR do know what they intend to run (subject of course to last minute issues) and they even provide the information somewhere, but they don't make it easy to find, and thus they lose a potential customer.