Tornado

@Hermod Here’s my firebox evolution history post from a while ago …. complete with photos ….

 

Finally (for today at any rate), here’s another insight to the boiler saga, as related to me by a fellow supporter and published with their permission. They gleaned this from a conversation with an ‘insider’ at a Trust event and I assume after such a long ongoing saga of ‘misfortune’ and ‘misinformation’ their conscience finally got the better of them and they felt compelled to break ranks ….

“Boiler 1 in Tornado at the moment, is having its grate replaced at the moment. Stays that should have been replaced with flexible ones, were not, (Meineghan fault) as specified in the contract, tubes which were fitted without an internal inspection, led to removal and renewal. There is a real worry it will not last more than 18 months, hence No 2 to be used in it. Meineghan not been paid, because of poor workmanship.

Boiler 2 is basically complete, its work is being overseen by a specialist in Germany, who reports regularly to the Trust, and is VERY happy with its construction. It is tubed.

Boiler 3 is a kit of parts, and here we go, the plan is to repatriate the parts, and have it constructed in the UK. Then put it into the P2.”

I think I’ve now published pretty much all I know (I’ve held back on much of it for months, in the hope that the Trust might come clean - I’ve given them the opportunity both here and through their normal supporter channels) so the question now is what action do supporters feel we should / can realistically take? I’ll return to this after absorbing any feedback.

 

Gosh.
Where is this relative to the rear boiler/firebox mounts?

Something is very much not right at the back of the loco...

 

A possible action for supporters is to tell the Trust "We have lost all confidence in you so we are withdrawing our support". I summarised my recent communications with them in post #8718. It is now almost a month since the Office Manager did her bit, but from the bosses there has been not a dickybird.

 

So we have a Melchett in charge with Darlings but no Blackadder.....?

 

Thank You for the pictures.
Almost as I remembered them.
Not a nice bedside story.
Make boiler 3 with 50mm wider waterspaces and weld in two times as many stays with half the crossetion.
Hindsigth is easy.

 

This goes to my theory that all the big new-builds have had mistakes, it's just when they are found.
If you look at how the clan and the patriot are going forward now, it's precision engineering, after some very hard lessons.

If the cartazzi truck was binding when built, that should have been investigated rather than just opened out. If a chunk of frame has needed replacing, what has that done to the structure of the back of the frames?

If the frame is a bit out, and has pulled the boiler a bit out, which is more prone to bending as it wasn't properly-stayed and not heat-treated, does that make everything move? What about the stresses from the ride on the opened-out truck?

Another thought, we hear a lot about how hard it is to fit all the gubbins for ERTMS (or whatever the acronym is). It's going to be much harder if all the spaces you planned to use aren't the shape you thought they were...

 

How would adding twice as much weld help?

This implies that the third boiler won't be made in Germany, which surely opens up the question of whether its going to be fully welded or not...

Could it be that we are going to see that third boiler made with threaded stays.........?
There is a long and well established track record of this on this island. Its not beyond the usual candidates to make up a traditional stayed boiler for the P2.
Was there some issue with getting a new build mechanically stayed boiler approved? Is that why the went down the fully welded road?

Also, 18 months... that would surely set a record for the shortest (and newest) post overhaul boiler to head back to the overhaul que in preservation! Lets hope that is not the case as that would be a deeply unfortunate outcome.

 

Ah yes, Tornado had to have the largest evaporative surface available in a willy-waving contest against LMS Duchess and SR MN class locos etc.

 

And nobody inUK cared for 25% higher standby losses.
Work for more miners underground.
DBs Chief engineer Friederich Witte proposed around 1950 to blanket of 33% of the grate area in the remaining ca 5000 Baureihe 50/52 boilers.
Grates 50 sq feet or greater have to be stoker fed by law in USA.

 

Having two times the number of stays that are thinner and longer and welded( by automats) both ends sounds like a retrograde step?
The first all welded steel boilers were 40 for class 52 in Germany 1944.
They were surpricingly good and Germany did not look back until end of steam.
Unthreaded ,welded stays were copied from russian wrecks.

 

Thank you Sheff for breaking cover on this, So, its not a good look is it, boiler one expected to only last about 18 months, the best option for the trust is to forget about Tornado going main line, this side of a extensive investigation by one of the VAB;s as to the state of the engine, and to operate it on preserved lines, until the other boiler is ready, If the P2 boiler is going to be assembled here, then revert to the old LNER arrangement and have a new copper firebox made and the original staying, i would go further and have a spare copper firebox made to replace the one in boiler number one, and replace the outer also, As regards the top brass, they, all of them need to go, and new people, to take over and trust the boiler work to someone here in the uk who has a good reputation, a new funding approach will be needed, and the old regime cannot be part of it.

 

For some reason, the Trust required European homologation. I presume that they had grandiose ideas of using the locomotives on mainland Europe. As such, Meiningen probably seemed the best option at the time. Meiningen is not certified for rivetted boilers, hence the method of construction.

 

I think watching "Absolutely Chuffed" will give the reason for choosing Meiningen, as I recall.

 

Classified boiler repair cost per mile 1954

LMS Duchess___2.7
LNER A1 _____0.95
MN_________ 0.63 Fully-welded steel firebox made by NBL Glasgow (methinks) and water treatment

 

Weren't we in the EU at the time of decision?

If done right, that would have been a sensible piece of future-proofing.
...if...

 

Not wanting to wind things up anymore but i am a little confused. i cannot tell the difference between boiler picture 3 and boiler picture 4.
So (if they are not just old and new pictures of the same boiler) surely whatever problems there were with Tornados boiler, which this new staying pattern is hoped will mitigate, have just been replicated into boiler no 2 .... ? Like Hermod suggests i thought the new boilers would have larger water spaces and expected the staying pattern to look different but perhaps i am missing something.

 

It sounds at first read like more drilling, welding and residual stress due to heat input, but on the other hand it also sounds exactly like the kind of precedent I had been hoping someone would chip in with regarding welded stays in loco boilers.
If there is a long established history..... I’m presuming the thinner stays are more flexible, and also, they have much smaller welds and therefore less residual stress in them...

NBL eh... that is interesting. Are the MN's still all welded? How are they being overhauled? do they have larger water cavity?

It appears that given the revelations above there are now some clear choices.

1. Stay with the current staying, welding and water cavity and just hope it all works out on the other two boilers....

2. Change the staying spacing and bar thickness, widen the water cavity, basically copy the German/Russian design above which has clear evidence of being successful.

3. Go copper and traditional threaded staying, which is what all the other NE Pacific’s in the UK had and currently have with much success and skills here to support.

To my mind, I am unable to see why a new build boiler cannot be of the traditional copper/rivet style if the builders work hand in glove with the VAB, certification bodys and insurers to demonstrate compliance etc etc. Isnt this exactly what the Patriot team are doing?

In the back of my mind there has been some argument against new build boiers and their inability to claim Grandfathering rights, even though just about every welll used preservation boiler now carries mere grams of its BR service era iteration. Happy to gain some clarity on this from those more versed.

Im ambivilant. The best boiler for tornado and the P2 is the one that gives the least amount of hassle in service. No one sees the stays in service so it really doesnt matter which design is chosen beyond performance and reliability.

 

There are many tomes of books and articles about Bulleid MN & WC locos and their boilers. Suffice to say, Bulleid & the Southern Railway followed USA practice to a large extent for their all steel boilers.