Tornado

So are the tyres below main line standard? Or are you just making things up?

It would seem remarkable to me if they were unfit, and yet someone has just put their professional reputation on the line and signed it off as fit to run on the mainline. It would also seem remarkable to me that WCRC would sign a contract to operate the loco for 3 years if they did not feel that there was at least three years of remunerative life in the loco - which means tyre life, amongst other things.

No-one is denying that the recent restoration has been beset by difficulties, some perhaps of the A1SLT's own making. But I get the distinct sense that for some people, that is crossing over into a desire to set more store on punishing the miscreants than resolving the situation. A Tornado out on the mainline earning money has to be preferable to what many here seem to prefer, which is the loco sat cold and lifeless just so we can all collectively jeer at the Trustees for ballsing everything up.

Not for the first time in railway preservation, I get the sense that many are keen to cut their own noses to spite their faces.

Tom

 

I agree. Though given that there is known to be an issue with tyres, I am prompted to wonder (ok, speculate!) whether 3 years is an assumption about the likely life and therefore the limit of what WCRC (or indeed any other operator) might commit to.

All of this comes back to a core question though - is there trust in the trustees, and in their collective ability to deliver the Trust's objectives? After the toings and froings of this overhaul, even a period of successful operation is unlikely to calm that down without, separately, much greater clarity to supporters.

 

It's common knowledge that the tyres on the drivers had an inch(?) turned off them as part of the making the boiler (now apparently known to be out of square). This was picked as an example of (a) poor decison-making (as it was not dealing with the underlying issue, and (b) an accelerated wear item which I would expect that WSC will not expect to pay for.

This makes the cost per actually-run mile of the tyres significantly higher than they should be as they have to pay for the scrapped element.

As we know, the announcement is entirely unspecific as to whether there is exclusivity for WCR. I believe it is also common ground that tyres for mainline use are held to a lower wear tolerance than on preserved lines.

Thus we end up with the potential, and I stress potential, risk of the deal being nothing like sustainable (as per my previous definition), as a lot of costs that are already in the engine are potentially not covered.
Given the engine's non-stellar availabilty over the last few years, I'd expect it won't steam as much as is hoped.

The net result of these will be a big cost to the donor pool at the end of this two year period. My suspicion is that the timing is non-coincidentally matching a boiler date. Who is going to cover the costs of the boiler overhaul? We know the boiler is in trouble (how many flexible stays? How many overhauls?) and there is more radio silence at the Meinegen boilers.

If this is wrong, it will turn out to be a very poor deal for Tornado. It smacks to me as a deal of desperation, the lack of proper responses to convenanter enquiry is suspicious too.

So my question to you Tom, is would you, or your membership tolerate a similar attitude from one of Bluebell's projects?

Yes, it's a big lovely shiny engine, but if it's management are sowing the seeds of it's own downfall, that isn't good for it, it's funders or the wider movement.

The alternative is to "trust the trust". This seems very thin gruel to me. Where are their recent deliveries on time? Where are their explanations? Where is their engineering expertise? Where are their communications?

 

3 Years might well be when the new boiler for Tornado is due to be fitted, and she will in effect have a new ten year ticket on the new boiler, once fitted, and the engine might be in need of any additional work that comes to light from 3 years of main line operation, My take on it is this, the engine will be withdrawn when the new boiler is ready, a boiler swop will take place, and any additional works needed to get a new ticket, then West coast will operate the engine, on the trust's behalf, for the entire new ticket, the only question is this, will the boiler swop be done at Carnforth?

 

Yes but wear is proportional to use, is it not? Your post suggested otherwise. If not why did you mention wear? Turning down the tyres had nothing to do with WCRC.

 

emmmm...GCR testing? NVR testing?
No mainline testing, but the loco has been tested.

 

She’s moving to Carnforth today under her own steam so that would suggest the tyres are of the required standard.

 

Which is why they won't pay for them. Which is why it remains an (unsolved) trust problem.

The trust have jumped for revenue that may well not meet the costs of events incurred since the last time it made any money. That money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the donor pool who are being very poorly-treated by the trust.

Further, as the tyres are much further through their wear rate than the use would suggest, there is a greater risk of it being stopped from mainline use within this agreement. Again, as we know the statement is entirely coy as to the terms, but if Tornado can't run on mainline during the duration, at best it doesn't earn money from mainline work, at worst it is either made good at trust's cost (or they pay losses suffered by WCS), and it's tied up not able to operate on preserved lines either.

Then where does that leave everything.

And before anyone says "oh it will never happen/the trust will have a plan for it", lets consider what's happened to date...

 

Also bear in mind that there is a hell of a lot of playing the man goes on from certain posters replying to literally anything that Martin says in pretty much any thread.....

I think we can possibly go way beyond 'suggest' unless some are now suggesting that WCR are operating locomotives on the mainline in a unsafe/not to standards state.....

 

As I have said, it's not the tyres now...

 

Well she is on the mainline now so assume a FTR has been passed..... https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U47367/2025-03-07/detailed

 

(And we've discussed upthread an FTR won't spot everything)
Lets see what WCR make of her. The cancellation of the trip to the East Lancs doesn't imply huge confidence

 

Bygones are bygones. The situation is what it is. I doubt anyone on here is privy to the terms of the deal between the A1 Group and WCR. What I have not seen is any serious suggestion of a better alternative. Given that Messrs Chipperfield, Rawling, Cubitt and co have experience from driving Tornado in 2018/9, a bit of continuity on the footplate is a good thing.

 

Amen to that brother …

 

Except it didn't work, remember?

 

Why?
If the trust has wasted large amounts of money, do you not think some form of lessons learned might be in order?

 

I think you are adding 2 + 2 and making 5.

It takes a lot to get a loco to a heritage line; it is not just the days it is booked to appear, but at least several days either side for the move. Given the move to Carnforth and the planned dates to appear at the ELR, there would be no time to do anything after its arrival except send it straight on again. A one week appearance at Bury would probably set back WCRC's plans for the loco by a good three weeks.

It's the A1SLT choice whether to move straight to Carnforth, or honour the initial trip to the ELR, though no doubt dates played part of the contract negotiations. (WCRC no doubt have their own future schedule with associated motive power plans, and therefore likely have a good idea both where they see Tornado in those plans, and how many days work they need to work the loco up to operational readiness). But having decided to go to Carnforth, I wouldn't read anything about condition into the decision to cancel the ELR, simply a recognition that the logistics don't work out.

Tom

 

The cancellation of the trip to the ELR is fairly logical in my opinion as to fit that in with what would seem to be West Coast requirements would be a very tight squeeze, if not impossible. But carry on knocking the trust if that makes you feel better