North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Reported over on the NELPG Faceache that they are taking on 68030, the Austerity that has stalled and could be a potential for oil burning (edit because I was wrong. More details to follow.

 

I think that it was only my suggestion that it was converted to oil firing. I'm not aware that it became railway policy. Has ownership changed hands or is it simply some agreement or informal arrangement?

 

My bad, I had assumed it was written gospel. All the post said was:

"Next project news. Our next project has started its journey, watch this space for details."

 

The original press release for oil firing is here

https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/no-2253-omaha-to-be-converted-from-coal-to-oil

 

Not really relevant to this thread, though - it makes no mention of the Austerity! There once was an oil-fired Austerity at the KWVR, although I'm not sure how successful it was, or what type of oil it burned. It's just a guess, but I assume that the S160, and ultimately the WD, will run on red diesel or central heating oil, whichever is cheapest (if there's a difference!) so if the Austerity is converted it would be simplest to design it for the same.

 

Much as I'm enjoying this conversation with myself (and apologies for not mentioning locomotives, always a guarantee of a response), I would be interested to know if what I've suggested re fare structures is common sense (as it seems to me), or if there's a good reason why it wouldn't be viable to have a different fare structures for Pickering-Grosmont (priced relatively lower to attract more custom) and Grosmont-Whitby (priced relatively higher per mile for the captive audience of the bucket & spade audience) and simply add the two together for the price of through tickets, day rovers and annual passes which include the Whitby part?

 

Well, can we take as a given that the objective is to increase ticket revenue?
Currently the fare is a standard £49.50 return for both Pickering -Grosmont and Pickering -Whitby with Gift Aid generating an additional 25%. If the train is running to and from Whitby its operating cost reflects that full 51 mile return journey whether passengers travel all the way or not. There's not much potential to promote Grosmont-Whitby only journeys so if there a significantly lower fare for the Pickering-Grosmont section encouraging passengers only to pay for that bit it follows that generating a surplus from trains running all the way will be much harder. It's been widely touted that a Pickering-Grosmont fare of around £35 would be attractive but to just the generate the same income the reduced fare would have to attract over 25% more passengers. Gift Aid makes that challenge even greater because under HMRC rules it can only be recovered on all line fares. So a £35 Grosmont return could involve a reduction in net income of around £27 per head. That's a huge number of additional passengers between Pickering and Grosmont just to match receipts from the current fare structure! Maybe that potential exists but it would be a foolhardy move to reduce fares by such a large net amount unless there was persuasive evidence that net ticket revenue would increase over the current level as a result.

 

Yes, you might lose some revenue from people who would otherwise go to Whitby but choose the shorter journey if it is on offer; but you would gain from people who don't wish to go to Whitby or who do but plan to drive there on another day. If the only offer is a fare to Whitby and back, whether or not one rides all the way, these latter won't bother at all. They could travel as far as Grosmont on a Whitby trains if those aren't full or on additional services between the Whitby trains (which latter would of course involve some additional operating costs). The question is how much you would lose in fares from people who would have gone all the way and how much extra the extra trains would cost to run, versus how much you would get in extra fares from people who (with the present structure) are not travelling at all. It makes no sense to look at the negatives without also looking at the positives.

 

The problem is you're seeing it as though suddenly everyone will be buying internal tickets rather than full line tickets - that's not the case. You've stated on a number of occasions that Whitby is the main destination, and nobody will refute that. But it's not an either/or situation, it's about attracting additional people to the railway. People who don't want to go to Whitby for the day, who are quite happy train hopping, walking from station to station, that sort of thing. Whitby trains are busy, you can't transport many more people there without additional infrastructure works on NR, so the aim has to be get more people to travel on the NYMR itself.

Your ticket prices are far in excess of what other railways charge and you're haemorrhaging passengers - surely anything to bring in extra income without abstraction from your primary market has got to be worth a go? To go from an annual pass for £49.50 to a daily ticket for the same price is a baffling decision when a cheaper version isn't available.

 

I thought there were station to station tickets for those that want to walk between stations.
"Our Shorter Journey Tickets offer day return travel between neighbouring stations. To travel 1 Station (e.g. Pickering – Levisham) £15.00 per adult (16+) and to travel 2 Stations (e.g. Whitby – Goathland) £25.00 per adult (16+). Children (4-15) reduced fares available and baby & toddlers (0-3) travel free. A single one-stop ticket is also available for £12.00 per adult (16+) or £3.20 per child (4-15)."

How many people are be going to be walking between stations to fill even a 3 coach train on a day the railway is operating?

I still remain to be convinced about this "army of walkers" awaiting a train service, because unless they have arrived on public transport Newtondale excepted you can park somewhere and walk I would have thought.

 

I'm sorry, but this reply really does demonstrate the one-dimensional thinking hat pervades the NYMR management. They know the buzzwordsw about "premium services" but haven't a clue about how to provide them!

Grosmont to Whitby is in demand and therefore should be regarded as being the premium product; Pickering to Grosmont should be priced lower, but a case ought to be strongly argued for it being made eligible for Gift Aid. AIUI Gift Aid is eligible because it it relies on being given to the whole attraction, and Pickering-Grosmont is the whole of the attraction as far as Trust is concerned. To my mind it is scandalous that the current interpretation has not been vigorously challenged. Caving in without doing so is weak management, almost spineless. That, however, is incidental. The management's interest is currently topsy turvey. Focusing on Whitby is not doing a very good job of promoting the work of the Trust, on the contrary it is downplaying it by effectively encouraging visitors without doing much in the way of actually visiting! The railway really needs to p-our much more effort in filling Pickering n- Grosmont services as those who want to go to Whitby will not be deterred; in other words, I don't think "less premium fares" for Pickering-Grosmont will affect Whitby traffic levels. It all comes down, I fear, to poor management that they do not seem to experiment to find out . If I were a bank manager at the end of the year being asked to continue the line of credit I would be asking what efforts have been made to try to attract more business. It would better to be able to say "we've tried a, b and c for these reasons, whatever the outcome" rather have to say "we haven't tried anything but hope"

 

A considerable number of people do walk from Goathland to Grosmont on the Rail Trail, then catch the train back utilising the £12 1-stop ticket, either bought at the Grosmont booking office or on the train.

ps those travelling from Pickering normally initially purchase a £25 2-stop ticket to cover the Pickering- Goathland leg, then the £12 1-stop ticket on completion of their walk at a total cost of £37.

 

I agree with many of the comments in this thread but I don't see how HMRC could make NYMR only be able to claim the gift aid on Whitby tickets when they don't own that section. Grosmont to Pickering is the full length of the NYMR. Trains going to Whitby are using Network Rail infrastructure. Therefore Gift Aid should surely apply to 'internal' full line tickets as well.

Apologies if someone else picked up on this and I've missed it.

 

Agreed, that’s exactly the point I was making. It’s not just a case of those that would have gone all the way but those who currently pay the full line fare, possibly with a 25% Gift Aid uplift, but only travel as far as Grosmont. As you say it’s about how much extra can be generated from those who currently choose not to travel at all but would if there was a Pickering Grosmont return fare. To generate the same income needs the number of those passengers to be at least 25% higher and after taking Gift Aid into account an even higher percentage. If that positive demand is there of course it would make sense to tap into it. The point I was making is that the decision to introduce such a fare should be based on hard market data not intuition or sentiment.

 

As I’ve commented earlier there appears to be no logic in the HMRC decision but that’s all that was on offer. We could have argued as 60044 suggests but that would have involved missing out on around £450k a year actually generated and the possibility of Gift Aid recovery being denied altogether.

 

There may not be an "army of walkers" but surely anything to entice a few extra people to the railway has got to be worth a go? Especially for minimal cost. As @Sidmouth4me has said, if anyone wants to do Pickering to Grosmont and back with a walk along the rail trail for one section, they've got to buy two separate tickets - a two stop return and a one stop single. That's just barmy. Why not a £35 internal day return/rover?

 

Wow that's absolutely bonkers. I hope there is a separate legal challenge going on in the background.

 

Bonkers or not the decision was hard won with the help and advice of legal advisers who have an impressive track record in dealings with HMRC. The advice on restriction to recovery only on All Line tickets was be grateful for what you’ve achieved and don’t risk a challenge that could result in the decision being reversed with inability to recover any Gift Aid.

 

If it hangs by a thread as much as you're implying I'd be very nervous about making it a core part of the balance sheet...

What exactly would that look like, and is the railway taking steps to do it? Or has it been decided not to based on intuition or sentiment...?

 

In which case, please help me understand the strategy behind the diesel gala day ticket ive just purchased for £45, which I can’t Gift Aid, which gives me significantly more flexibility than on a normal day, and at a significantly higher cost to the railway.

I’m an enthusiast, and that’s a very toppy price for a day. Yet it’s less than a normal day ticket.