North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

It's the icing, it pays for the little extras, or at least it should do.

Sawdust.

 

Secondary spend is important, but the real trick is to make it a part of the primary spend - in other words, upselling of add-ons, so that it is known the money is coming in before the passenger even sets foot on the train. Additional catering opportunities such as cream teas is one possibility, , pie and peas on return trips from Whitby (less smelly than fish & chips), need to be pre=ordered & paid for, so little or no waste). Even hampers with sensible content might work. For instance, for all the talk of lineside conservation, I find it hard to see how it brings in any money over and above its costs, despite the NYMR being in a prime locations from that point of view - but I'm sure it could! My son works for English Heritage at Stonehenge as a private party tour guide. He and a colleague talk small groups of pre-booked tourists on a tour of Stonehenge plus a range of nearby related sites - Woodhenge, Durrington Walls, Avebury etc -that includes a picnic lunch. Now, could the NYMR do something similar - a train trip to Levisham, disembark there for the tour, regain the train later at Goathland for the remainder of the journey. Say £35.00 per head based on a minibus holding 10. Different themes of tour could be offered - ornithological, wildflowers, reptiles, insects , even remnants of former industry and so on. And when the volume of people is to small to run a tour the guides could revert to being conservationists! What's more this also ticks the educational boxes

What I've been saying all along is that people still come to the NYMR. They don't spend enough, so it's necessary to make sure that they do, and the way to do that is via value-adding additional options - and I'm sure that there must be others - and better ones - beyond what I have suggested, but they really need to be integrated into the advertised offering - and pushed!

 

I was shocked how much it had all grown up a couple of months ago, especially through Northdale. This picture from a month ago shows how much the trees have grown up alongside the boundary fence.

https://flic.kr/p/2rtVdcW

A lot of the line seems to have become a green tunnel, but only for the first 30' or so either side of the line. But it means the views are severely hampered.

I think you underplay the impact of secondary spend. The last set of NYMR accounts show turnover on railway operations as £4.4m, and catering at £2.2m - an extra 50%. But that obviously includes the diner. The GWSR figures show catering provides 50% extra on top of ticket sales, but theirs is listed as on train catering. They also have the advantage of only using volunteers on the trains!

The mark up on food and drink should be providing a healthy income for the railway. The £7.50 cream teas for the static Scotsman events should only cost the railway a couple of quid each to buy in. It's baffling that it wasn't offered as an option when services are actually running! When the 75029 raffle has raised a little over 5 grand of its £20,000 target, any income has got to help.

Talking of income, as it stands, the post-Christmas trains are going to make a massive loss for the railway. Over the 9 days, only around 100 tickets have been sold. I think 3 days don't have a single booking! And it's another pricing strategy -£49.50 return (same as a day rover but only one return trip), and you can gift aid your ticket but there's no voucher. Pretty poor value for money, when at the same time the SVR are running their winter gala with 7 locos in steam, for a lot less money.

 

You would be even more shocked if you saw that same location now. Not only by the tree growth both near and away from the lineside but by the huge spread of bracken throughout Northdale. It looks lush, green and innocuous in that picture but already it has turned completely brown. It is now a vast carpet of tinder waiting to catch fire next spring. I'm not sure that that is a manageable situation any more.

Peter

 

Is it not generally reckoned that ticket revenue is insufficient?

 

It is. Which is where, though they phrase it differently, @Lineisclear, @60044 and @Sawdust are all correct in their view that there need to be ways to persuade visitors to spend over and above their tickets - something that is made more challenging by how the railway feeds passengers to a honeypot destination which is likely to take their spare pennies.

However, if we define "secondary spend" more tightly as "catering, literature, and souvenirs purchased on the day during a visit", then I am not convinced that it is quite the icing on the cake that @Sawdust suggests. The income is worthwhile, and it goes without saying that profit from the shops and cafes is useful income for the railway. But the costs of that need to be acknowledged. Stock ties up cash, while shops and cafes need people to run them. Whether you do that through volunteers (who have to be found), or paid staff (who have, well, to be paid), there are practical costs attached.

 

This is the key point.

The business model relies on having sufficient people who value the railway. We face more competition for people’s attention and time. We have a very different demographic, and many have little to no knowledge that heritage railways even exist. My view is that when you strip away the detail it comes down to these things:
- we have to appeal to a greater number of people from a wider section of society, which means coming up with new and different reasons for them to see the railway and want to visit
- we have to make volunteering fun, interesting and safe (both physically and emotionally) for all
- we need to care for all our volunteers and help them get the best from the experience….and that needs different things than the past …

When I really boil this down, I am really not sure that we are collectively doing a good enough job of promoting to and reaching new audiences with interesting and compelling reasons for them to get involved in whatever way appeals (visiting, volunteering or donating). And we need to do that without letting go of any of the existing audiences!

 

My definition of secondary spend is spend that is as hoc and not part of any package. For example, deciding to have a cup of tea or buy a souvenir. If a person has bought a catering option as part of the ticket price, that is not secondary spend. You have visited with that intent and cannot change your mind, whether pre-booked or bought at the ticket office.
Others may define it differently.

 

I agree, (in the light of practical experience at another railway) which is why I think that it is necessary "value added" elements to be structured so as to become part of the "primary spend", so that the money is safely received before other temptations elsewhere have a chance to lure it away! That is what happens with the Pullman diners, it should be more the aim with other dining options, partly because of the range of other options nearby and partly because the railway should have the inherent attraction of offering an on-train service - something which is largely unknown to the majority of present day passengers. And it would be educational too! Might help with controlling wages and waste more tightly if offered primarily as a pre-booked service.

 

Interesting; I see from reading up on bracken that it's now considered almost an invasive pest species, which has other downsides than the fire risk (which wasn't mentioned). Apparently animal husbandry used to accidentally (as in, not purposefully) help control it, but that has now much declined. (The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again.)

Noel

 

Secondary spend is vital, but so is getting the ticket price right. That's what brings people in the first place.

 

This was a few years ago on a photo charter, in November. Very wet underfoot but tinder dry vegetation.



Typical scenery for Somerset and Dorset...

 

There are only so many ways to skin a flea, regardless of how you define them! My preference is to obtain as much from the outset, rather than leave it to whims or chance, but to obtain a higher price you have to match that price with perceived good value - and preferably offer something your competitors cannot. That's where the NYMR has failed to develop its "mass offering" in the catering area. It's platform-based catering establishments are inadequate, and not particularly inspiring. They sort of work at Grosmont, Goathland and Levisham because there isn't much competition but still get swamped at busy periods and are desertede once the trains depart, and on-train options are currently very limited. It has to be recognised, though, that the drive to pack in as many seats as possible o trains has resulted in the standard catering vehicle being the RMB, which is woefully inadequate for the task of providing better catering. RBRs are rare, so the only long term answer might be to convert BGs. At present, the best option for the traveller is to wait for arrival at Pickering or Whitby and head off into the town - and I for one don't think that's a very good response for the NYMR. Far better to grab their money whilst they are on the train, where there are no rivals!

 

There’s an element missing from that analysis, which is about whether people travelling to Whitby or Pickering are likely to be seeking en route refreshments, or will have planned to buy them at destination. The available uplift will be heavily influenced by the nature of potential demand

 

You have done the same! The aim should be to influence those people whilst they are captive! - think house-selling guidelines or supermarkets : have the smell of freshly brewed coffee, baking bread or frying sausages/burgers pervading from the buffet car, carried along the train to reach other carriages and notify the more remotely seated passenger to their availability. It's salesmanship, not rocket science! Adapt or die!

 

What proportion of the market is the coach trip brigade? Fish and chips at xxxxx in Whitby, a walk round town or up to the Abbey, a one way snooze on the train, pick you up at Pickering. ancillary spend won't be more than a cup of tea with that lot. One train serves various sub-markets, all are needed at the right price.

 

You mistake me. I'm not disputing the need for salesmanship, or that there is some potential for additional revenue. My comment is about the analysis of how much scope there is for these to deliver. Given your examples, it would be interesting to assess the experience of the GCR for the revenue earning of their griddle car operation.

I'd also add, noting the caveat that anecdote is not data, that for some (Mrs 35B, for example), the smell of a burger wafting down the train is not an incentive but the opposite.

 

Are people more likely to spend more when buying on impulse than in advance?
As in " my word those teacakes look good, can I have a couple of those as well please?".

Sawdust.

 

In days of yore, when I dabbled with volunteering on the catering trolley, we would often do a roaring trade with miniature bottles of spirits along with cups of tea to coach parties.

Sawdust.

 

I am. But if the purpose of my journey is to go to Whitby, where my plan is to have a fish & chip lunch, I may well not want to spoil my appetite by having a teacake - and if on the way back, I may not have the appetite left.

Similarly, if you want to go beyond shrink wrapped offerings, how are you going to get people to the buffet - or get trolleys to a standard that can do decent coffee that would encourage me to buy (clue - I don't drink instant).

All of which are examples why the analysis needs care, as what works in one place may not work elsewhere, and none of these come free.