North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

There remains a strata of the population of the UK who can afford and enjoy a luxury day out by train - The LSL Blue Pullman trains and VSOE British Pullman trains (for example) don't seem to run empty. Good for them and their customers, unfortunately these are NOT the bread and butter or target audience of the majority of heritage railways. To get customers through the doors and onto to the trains it needs to be an affordable and good value day out to people who have a passing or no interest in railways. I am 33.33% of my household and the only one with any interest in railways. I cannot really justify anything more than £50 for the three of us for at least a half days entertainment on a railway. There are cheaper days out elsewhere. That means that both I and the railways lose out.

There must be a sweet spot for people - better to fill a train with people not paying much, than run it half empty for the small number who can afford it. Cheap tickets means a greater likelihood of secondary spend with better profit margins too. I have enjoyed several days out at Statfold Barn as mentioned by Steve earlier. It is both enjoyable and extremely good value and all credit to Graham Lee and his team.

The cost of living crisis is very real and pleading that it costs £X to run a train so the prices have to be high will sadly not garner much support with potential customers who simply see it as a luxury day out. The answer? I really don't know, but I suspect things will get worse before they get better...

 

Isn't that why you want a series of price points ---£20 return for two stops,£30 for three, £40 for all line for example, with half fare for children. Then people allocate themselves according to the offer, their preferences, their time and money budgets. Then you run a timetable which facilitates that. Easier said than done, I know, given all the operating constraints.

My guess is that this year, they will really have suffered from the overhang from the 'season ticket' from the previous year plus the price hike.Next year, hold the prices and market the full range of options with days out on the train leaflets etc.

 

Or things may be worse next year when tax rises, which now seem a given, mean folks have even less disposable income.

 

The likes of Saphos succeed because they are seen to be offering value for money.

 

I can understand that £50 number. However a quick trawl of the Bluebell, MHR, K&ESR, RH&DR plus Swanage, my local line, show that is really not obtainable even on family fares in the south at least.
It would be £48 if booked in advance at the MHR, and as long as only one child with two adults just achievable on the RH&DR

 

Do not disagree but the problem is the perception of value for money is so nebulous by customer as to be almost unworkable.
Lord Hendy for example would tell me value for money on the national network is some advance ticket with no flexibility. Many may agree, to me it offers zero value for money, because to me it is a worthless product.
All those that complain about add on charges for low cost airlines or "lack of care" when things go wrong seem to want low prices with premium levels of service. If you want premium service pay for it.
Even the rail network says it provides good customer value in that in the NRCoT (at least until the upcoming rewrite chucks most of it out), it will get you to your destination somehow. But a read of other forums shows that on the ground it is not understood, or deliberately refused.
Many, my wife included, would regard a Mk1 in winter (not that many lines now operate then) as poor value for money, whereas the cynic I am would regard working heat as an unexpected bonus along with lighting when it gets dark.

 

Value for money is an entirely subjective concept, depending on what is being discussed, and the expectations and price sensitivity of the purchaser. It’s not the same as (but often confused for) “cheap.

As for the question of advance purchase tickets, your example demonstrates how something can be both true in general, yet false in particular.

 

That long - how long has D5032 been under overhaul at Grosmont? Or Tulyar been being worked on by the DPS?

 

Deleted

 

Absolutely; the difficulty is understanding what the potential customers of the product perceive as value. Those considerations are likely to be very different for someone paying several hundred quid for a meal than for someone looking for a family day out for 2+2.

A lot of this discussion has focused around the price of the core item a railway sells: the price for an adult round trip. But actually the larger heritage railways sell a wide variety of tickets and products. An approximate tier list, going from cheapest to most expensive, is probably like:

Core (probably in the £10 - £50 range, depending on railway)

• Day travel for tour groups (discounted over the "baseline" price)
• Day travel for members (discounted over the "baseline" price, but typically requiring a one-off membership purchase)
• Day travel (the "baseline" price, though even there many railways offer some kind of advance booking discount)
• Non gala special event (Santa, Lights etc)
• Gala travel (more expensive than baseline for a perceived enhanced service, i.e. more intense service / visiting locos / other attractions)

Boutique / Luxury (probably in the £75 - £1000 range, depending on railway

• Footplate trip
• Photo charter attendance
• Premium dining
• Footplate course

That's a lot of groups to market to: they will all to an extent buy based on perceived value for money, but perceptions of what constitutes value will be very different for, say, a family looking for Santa service or someone buying a footplate course for a significant other.

That then feeds into two significant questions about price elasticity. Firstly, how elastic is the price, and secondly how risky is it if you get it wrong. To take a concrete example: this year on the Bluebell we started offering round-trip footplate rides for the first time. The starting price at the beginning of the year was £110 (*). By the end of the year, the same product is £149. Although I'm not privy to the booking figures, my perception from the rostering info I have is that the product sold very well (against very limited availability - a max of two per operating day at the weekends). So I think the starting price was pitched low to test the market and it has risen to a point where the market will still bear the price.

But that is almost the perfect product for testing that price elasticity. Firstly, places are limited, and it is likely for a limited service that there will always be some takers, almost regardless of cost, simply because of the difficulty of otherwise getting that experience. Secondly, the cost to the railway of delivering the service is almost zero (the train is running anyway). That's important, because it gives a lot of scope for getting the price wrong (either too low or too high) without too much risk. If we pitched it too low - well, we got some money and can raise the price. If we pitched it too high - well, the train is running anyway, so it is not like we have had any additional expense. Either way, you can rapidly adjust the price to find a sweet spot.

The difficulty is that it is comparatively easy to understand the price elasticity of a footplate ride, but it is also always going to be marginal in terms of the overall railway finances, simply because so few rides are available. Where you really want to be able to find that sweet spot is with the general round trip rides, because they will always be where the bulk of your fare income comes from. My reading of the NYMR situation is that they have suffered a number of problems in the core service relating to price and value for money: in short the price is too high and the perceived value too low (not least because of the fire-risk issues around diesel substitution: understandable in the circumstance but just compounding an already dicey position on value for money.

As others have commented, a couple of years of price freezes - especially if actively promoted ("Prices held for 2026!") - should help restore a bit of equilibrium on that price / value spectrum. But more generally, understanding the products you offer, and what the buyers of those products perceive as value, is key. It won't be the same for all products.

(*) As that included a day rover ticket for other travel on the same day, essentially a marginal cost to the buyer of £88, rising to £121 as the price increased through the year.

Tom

 

Just watching "Steam Train Diaries" on more 4.

Really good watch, nice to see a little of what some of the various teams do at the railway.

Piglet comes across really well on the program.

Chris

 

But at increasingly high costs. The residual life is being used up and that will get expensive. Just a simple (SVR) example - 37263 was on restricted use because of the limited tyre life.

 

I think the problem is that the individual items needed are getting more expensive, but the hire fees haven’t increased at a similar rate. True costs are not always being covered and reserves for the future are typically low. In reality the steam situation isn’t so different

 

Value for money will always be subjective. You’ve just quoted your local railways and, based on that, you might consider the NYMR fare to be value for money. However, the NYMR is not in that area and value for money to those in its hinterland is going to be quite different. For example, last night I ate in a pub in Southampton. Steak & ale pie, beetroot and potatoes followed by ice cream with a pint of bitter set me back £41.85 including service charge. Tomorrow night I’m booked in a pub back home. Steak & ale pie with mash and vegetables followed by ice cream with a pint of bitter will cost me £27.85 with no service charge but adding 10% comes to £30.65. It will be bigger and better than the one in Southampton. I regard the former as a rip off and the latter as value for money.

 

I’d consider the price for your footplate trip to be value for money. I’m not sure what the NYMR have been charging but think it’s in the high £300’s for 36 miles (can’t go to Whitby. ). There’s a long waiting list.

 

Mad Alice is full. Locomotion is full, the railway don't put on more trains to get more revenue but remain closed on half term days.

It's idiotic management.

As is making a 12 month ticket only buy one day's journey in the next season.
And...
Not having a Pickering to Grosmont fare available at the start of season. No printed timetables in good time. Charging children until suddenly they decided they'd go free.
Not giving a diesel discount in time of fire risk.
Being closed in vital half term weeks.
Selling the first trains of the year with Nigel Gresley at a discount price, just at a time when pent up demand for travel would be at its peak. Why travel in April when you can go on Gresley a week earlier for £30?

People who love the railway and have supported it for 30 years or more, such as myself, begin to wonder if the people running it have a death wish.

 

The footplate experience idea is interesting. In the past the NYMR were offering driving experiences and footplate rides. £750 got you a one-way drive and footplate ride back, along the whole line from Grosmont to Pickering. Included was a café voucher, book, 10% shop discount and a certificate. £450 got you a footplate ride from Pickering to Grosmont and back, an annual membership and a certificate.

Two people paying £750 for the footplate experience isn't far off the income that the Bluebell get for theirs (5 x £330), but the mileage incurred is significantly more - more coal, more wear and tear, and the use of a much bigger loco than a Terrier simply shuttling up and down to the outer home signal. From what I remember, the loco was steamed solely for one return trip, light engine. Seems a waste when the line has historically struggled for steam locos.

£1500 income for the driver experience seems incredibly low considering it's for one round trip. The SVR run either half day or full days. Income per day ranges from £5320 to £6880! MHR offer light engine or with stock experiences. LE is Alresford to Ropley, the other is full line. The first brings in £2280, the second £4320. Every line. Other lines seem to be charging between £2000-4000 for the day, split amongst several participants over several sessions.

The NYMR seems to be the only one who does one session per day. It's as if they've picked the most basic option without considering anything else. No rolling stock or brake van means no passengers can be carried. Fine if you've made your way to Grosmont on your own, but if you've gone with your partner, they'll be stuck there for 3 hours while to trundle to Pickering and back!

 

263 is pretty much a single owner machine, I also believe 37403 whilst owned by a larger group is in a similar condition.
The point (I’m badly making) is the likes of the DEPG, DTG BHG and WLA is they’ve coordinated together to pool knowledge and spares together.
I think the likes of The Growler Group, A1A loco’s and the Peak Loco society have for several years done the hard yards in doing the un sexy stuff in accumulating spares, whilst a new set of tyres is going to be bloody expensive, with a bit of coordination and a chat with someone like Mr Needle I would imagine it wouldn’t be insurmountable.

 

I don’t think much is insurmountable. Tyres are expensive, but they are not what should (or do?) keep loco owners awake at night. Electronic cards with obsolete components though…. That’s much more challenging. Early microprocessors way more so. Electro pneumatic valves - probably game over. There is some stuff where the absence of spares availability would lead to huge engineering issues to overcome the problem (nothing is impossible, but it becomes a question of cost).