WHR General Discussion.

No idea which railway/heritage organisation you belong to Maureen but how would you like others to come on here and suggest people didn't patronise your lot? We preservationists are all in the same boat and yes there will be differences of opinion etc. but to actually suggest people don't support a line is out of order in my opinion. I've visited both versions of the WHR and enjoyed each visit and look forward to doing so again.

 

Thanks for that Lez.

Chris

 

Bit of good luck, mate. I got to know one of their drivers a year or two ago. He comes to have a bit of standard - gauge therapy on my footplate a couple or three times a year and vice versa. It's a symbiotic relationship!

I have to agee with your second paragraph. Whatever the past problems, the here and now is reality and the future is important for both groups. The hard reality is the WHR is already a major tourist attraction in its own right and is only going to grow. It is running 9-coach trains because it is filling 9-coach trains. I don't want to rake over embers, or start another fight, nor do I have any interest in the "politics," but I have to wonder why the WHHR wanted to run Gelert's Farm - Pont Croesor, when I understand they were offered the chance to run Harbour - Beddgelert. Maybe someone could enlighten me. However, as I said, I don't want to stir the pot again. I wish both operations well.

 

Take a guess that the WHHR did not want to lose the secondary income from their shop at Gelerts Farm and the Cafe...

 

I have been following this thread, and agree with Spamcan81 as regards the fact that everyone wants to see preservation. There is a lot of history in both camps, and nobody should be judging anything other than the fact that the WHR has been rebuilt and can it survive in todays World.
The WHR was originally designed as a Tourist railway, so the question of historical accuracy is not so relevant in today's world. A lot of public money has been obtained in order to achieve this re-opening, as was the case with the 1923 Company.
What is needed, now, is for the new WHR, from Caernavon to Porthmadoc to be able to run successfully as a business, and for the heritage side to co-exist with it. Both are necessary to show the past, present and future for this undertaking, as is the meeting of minds to ensure that it does not fail.
I would rather see this railway run successfully now and in the future than have no railway at all, and for it to do so, it will need to be run Commercially.
Can everyone please just agree to disagree as required, and get on with the main objective, which is running the railway in a way that the Public want to see and support it.
It is the Public who will keep the Railway financially viable by buying tickets and travelling.
Preservationists and others will keep the Railway going by inputting their time, and in many case, their money, because they want to.
The best scheme in the World, whatever it is, will only survive if supported financially, sufficiently.
As Voltaire said, 'I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'
Perhaps we should all remember this.

 

I don't agree with the earlier contributor's idea of a boycott. However since the FR is, supposedly, such a businesslike organisation probably the best approach would be to give them money. Perhaps an offer to invest a substantial amount of time and money into the completion of the Pen-y-Mount to Pont Croesor section (including signalling of the junction & level crossings, building Pont Croesor platform etc) would encourage the FR to take WHHRs future train service proposals more seriously.

WHHR originally offered to build the whole of this section at no cost to the FR but only got as far as Traeth Mawr. Various circumstances prevented them from going further - but there is still plenty of work needed on this section and the FR now needs the money. Why not offer to contribute (in both cash terms and volunteer resources) whatever WHHR expected it would have cost them to do the job as originally intended?

 

I don't think they have the cash - I guess that's part of the reason they never got to Pont Croesor in the first place....

 

More like 200 years if the amount they have achieved since 1964 is anything to go by.

 

Originally Posted by RGCorris
What exactly would you have them do to demonstrate that they had reached such a state of grace ?

Take down the posters at Tremadog Road criticising the FR, tell their staff not to make snide comments about the FR to visitors, avoid publishing 'amusing' little digs at the FR in their journal, admit that the Yahoo WHR email group is controlled by them despite a statement on its front page stating that there is no official connection, don't start any more 'anonymous' internet petitions demanding that the FR gives them access to the rebuilt RhE and generally to stop bickering and grow up.

How's that for starters?

 

I think a couple of facts are useful here:

1. The WHR (64) didn't own the trackbed, so how could it possibly have rebuilt the railway? The FR came along at a time when the council etc had finally decided to do something about disposing of the land etc and the FR managed to acquire it instead of the 64 Co. If the 64 Co had been successful in obtaining the trackbed, who's to say that the project wouldn't be at the same stage now?
Using the logic of 'maureen' and 'michaelh' then why did the FR not restore the line back in the 70s/80s? Simple answer - they didn't own the trackbed and they had other priorities. The exact same reasons apply to the WHR 64 - they didn't own the land either, and bearing in mind there seemed to be no movement to enable them to acquire the land, they made Gelert's Farm their priority.

2. The FR obtained a very substantial amount of funding from the Millenium fund. How could the 64 Co possibly have obtained this funding back in the 70s/80s? Move the Millenium???!!! The FR also obtained substantial funds from the Welsh Assembly which DIDN'T EXIST in the the 70s/80s!

There are a number of people on here who are very harshly criticising the WHR 64 while conveniently forgetting the facts.


Keith

 

You should really apply your own rules to yourself.
Calling someone infantile, of no consequence, a distraction, accusing them of things that you seem to have no proof of, and taking every opportunity both here and on the WHR forum to criticise and put them down is hardly the action of a grown up, intelligent person is it?


Keith

 

Can we please stop the personal insults on this thread, or action will be taken again those forum members.

Richard

 

Richard - Thank you for your intervention. Unfortunately the revival of the WHR has been getting people hot under the collar for some 45 years and, judging by the problems over that time, will continue until infinity. Many stances have been taken by many people, and in some cases, the same people. Getting personal does not do the preservation movement any good whatsoever, and neither does spending money on legal bills which should be going towards restoration.
If I were a member of the Public, and saw this thread, it would put me off visiting not just the WHR x 2 & FR, but other railways as well.
I would like to see what is best for the average person visiting and it does not appear to be in sight yet

 

Hmmm... If that is the case then perhaps the FR should remove the WHHR connection. After all, plain line is easier to maintain than a turnout, and I feel sure the turnout could be used elsewhere.

 

Am i correct in thinking that the FR acquired the trackbed of the WHR because they were afraid of losing customers to the WHR 64. If that is the case, what has changed ? No matter who owns the WHR, the FR will still be losing trade, even if it belongs to them, they are now in competition with themselves !! Is this logical thinking or what ? Surely the FR would have prefered no competition at all !! The WHR will be a ball and chain for the FR. One thing for certain is, when harbour station and cob is rebuilt to except twelve coach trains, plus the gigantic garratt, you can all say bye bye, to the image of the FR.

 

Sounds a bit like ' Love story`to me, they call this implosion, you know. Maybe there is already someone waiting in the wings ? In anycase, this isn't going to last. R

 

I think its worth going into this a little further. The 'philosophy' of the WHRL - running (relatively) small trains and relying almost entirely on volunteers, would i think not only have made operating further than PC difficult, but it would've seriously hampered their chances of getting grants.

The FR business plan worked because they could carry a large number of passengers quite cheaply, and from both Caenarfon and Port. They also benefitted from two(?) extremely generous donations by wealthy supporters. The WHRL however, after extending to PC and a period of consolidation, would be trying to get money for an extension to Beddgelert (and perhaps Rhyd Ddu) which would compete with another local railway, would be limited by volunteer numbers and whose trackbed, by the time the WHRL could've contemplated extending that far, would most likely have been turned into one of the most popular paths in the country.

Given that they would need to lease the trackbed from the local authorty, and almost certainly against huge local opposition, with a shaky business plan to boot, i'd be surprised if the WHRL ever got beyond Nantmor. There is a very good reason why the FR got so much grant money - the philosophy of long trains along a well-built and relatively maintenance free railway, built by contractors quickly with no long-term terminus in the national park, while benefitting from the economies of using staff, volunteers and facilities from the FR, helped made it attractive to the Millenium Commission and WAG.

I really dont think a piecemeal, volunteer-led and 'heritage' style approach would have received local support, let alone produced a workable business plan. I fear the local authority would've been quite happy to make road 'improvements' using the trackbed, and rid themselves of the pesky overbridges whose maintenance they've been lumbered with for so long, perhaps saying it wouldnt hinder future rebuilding but would be useful as a cyclepath or long distance footpath in the meantime... Complete conjecture, but i dont think its too outlandish.


Chris

 

This IS conjecture and trolling in its most extensive form. The WHR 64 group have never had the chances of the FR, there is no comparison !!

 

TCL (Trackbed Consolidation Ltd) the company set up by '64 Co members to regain control of the entire course of the railway, offered the trackbed to the '64 Co on three separate occasions and was turned down. Only then did they enter negotiations with the FR.

It is also worth noting that, having got off their backsides and actually made the rebuilding a possibility, the TCL people were kicked out of the '64 Co for their trouble.