WHR General Discussion.

Your initial theory just seems a bit bizarre. None of the 'issues' with the WHR have been deflected, Renovator has only increased discussion of them. If anything had gone quiet since earlier in the year its the situation with the WHHR, which since he joined the forum he has reminded everyone of. A lot. (on that topic i hear there's a meeting scheduled for october)

...Anyway. With regards to passenger numbers, costs etc i myself had the same worries, but which have been put almost entirely to rest by this summer.

Firstly, while fuel costs have doubled, 198% increase is (i think) a quadrupling in passenger traffic. And while fuel costs have doubled, conversion back to coal should help long term although the current economic situation has made costs a little more erractic than usual.

Finally, the best news is that the huge increase in traffic cant be put down to enthusiasts - not only is it likely a lot of people are waiting till the full reopening before visiting (again, down to the recession) but after the initial few months most people are apparently riding the whole line and not just section through the pass. If anything, next year will probably be even better due to word-of-mouth publicity.

Chris

 

It looks to me as if Triassic = Renovater = Lostlogin ....

Yes, FR + WHR (and WHHR) will all survive - too much time, money, enthusiasm and passion have been invested for them not too, and they are too valuable to the local tourist economy for anyone to allow them to fail (plus too important as historic monuments, especially the FR, which will be 200 years old in 2032). Plus they are just too damned good. Next question?

My theory about these negative posts is that some people are just bitter with jealousy...

I think this thread should be locked now!

 

A 200% or 198% increase is a tripling.

 

Funny how there are some calls from the FR/WHR supporters for this thread to be locked... I am genuinely interested to discuss whether the FR`s gamble over re-opening of the WHR is a step too far even for them.
There is not one ounce of me that would want to see the FR go to the wall, but I really do wonder if that gamble will pay off.
Oh and I do think Rennie is a bit out of his depth and he`s scheme a liitle "optimistic" to say the least.
Just a hypothetical thought to put things into perspective. If it wasn`t for a couple of wealthy people putting huge cash injections in for locos the WHR would be down to two steam locos, one of which is not up to hauling full capacity trains.
I know it`s early days but will the WHR really be able to stand on its own two feet?

 

The problem is that there seems to be no debate, just people saying along the lines of 'they've bitten off more than they can chew' and 'it wont work' again and again... but not expanding on why they think that! If people dont offer up a reason for their opinion then there's no debate.

Thats why i think this thread isnt going anywhere beyond being a soapbox for Mr R to wind people up with his tramway replacement for the FR&WHR, and thats getting pretty boring now.

Chris

 

While i understand your fear i dont think i've seen anything suggesting that the WHR isnt already standing up on its own 'two feet' (nice!). The problem is that the money the WHR makes isnt enough to fund the big expenditure it needs in the next few years - station buildings, more carriages (and undercover storage for them), finishing the LC's etc etc, and thats why the money is so tight.

Chris

 

Hang on, I would not say my idea was identical to Renovators. My view is that the WHR could with a decent fast all year round service be part of the public transport system in the area. There is nothing radical or controversial in that I would have thought as getting cars and the public off the road was one of the stated claims when the FR applied to rebuild the WHR and claim grants.

I appreciate that this may not be financially viable and it would have to be subsidised. You could subsidise the building and running of the service and the rolling stock or the infrastructure. My preference would be the infrastructure or the infrastructure to be taken over by a narrow gauge "railtrack". This is not because I want the WHR to fail but having the infrstucture maintained and paid for by a "non volunteer" body would leave the volunteer organisations free to spend their time elsewhere.

This may be pie in the sky thinking, certainly at present but I do not see any harm in trying to think of using the narrow gauge lines as more than tourist attractions. Most it is irrelevent as they go to "nowhere" having been built to serve the quarries, but some such as the WHR do have potential, especially if there is a drive to get cars off the roads etc. Who knows in ten years time you could see "congestion" type charges on cars in parts of Snowdonis if the Park Authority wished to alleviate traffic from some routes.

I can not see anything I have posted there that is harmful to the FR or WHR as it operates now as I am not calling an end, reduction or changes it what it operates. Rather I am trying to see if there are ways the facilities could be for the "greater good" whilst not expecting the FR or WHR to have to stump up. The answer is probably no but I do not see why we should in this day and age when a "new" railway is built it should basically be aimed at tourists.

I would also point out that this week's lead storey in the Cambrian News is a proposal to reopen the railway from BF to Trawsfynydd all be that it is standard not narrow gauge. The proposer envisages that it would be used by people commuting as well as tourists. I happen to think that the idea is as far fetched as being able to run fast multiple car units on the WHR around the tourists trains but it does show that there does appear to be some interest in the push to get people away from cars.

 

I thought that particular thought had been put to bed when the Mods blocked the thread previoulsy whilst they reviewed it. I neither know or am Triassic or Renovator and I get slightly insulted when posters assume that is the case. I do not want to make unnecessary work for the mods but if anybody genuinly feels that a person is posting with numerous "personalities" they should report it to the mods so they can check it out and put a stop to it if it proves to be the case.

The railways will surive at least in the short and medium term but long term is anybody's guess. There is an interesting strand about which Railways will still be here in X years time on one of the other parts of the this forum and many of the points made there could also apply to the WHR as time progresses and it "looses" it special attraction to the enthusiast affirnity just because itis new. 40 miles of railway is a lot to maintain especially as it starts to weare and I would expect that boiler and fir boxes will not be cheap to repear or replace when the time comes. That is not to have a downer on the WHR as I am bitter with jealousy but none of us know where we will stand in 20 years time in attracting the volunteers we need to survive especially if it is a contracting pool. It may be that the bigger lines are better off in attracting thise volunteers, alterntively it may be the smaller lines who are in a better position as they can survive with fewer numbers. Ultimately only time will tell.

 

Negativity

Is it only me who finds this thread depressing?

Here we have a new railway that's exceeding all traffic predictions and revenue generation. It runs through (officially) the most beautiful location in Britain, trains are full to standing even with the addition of extra carriages, one of the UK's most famous rail enthusiasts was so impressed by a couple of days visiting that he's spending half a million quid on restoring a loco to run on it.

The FR and WHR contributed £9 million to the local economy before the reopening to Beddgelert. That money generated 350 jobs in addition to the 60 full time staff employed by the railway itself. That figure will peak at £14 million (and 400 jobs) a year and average out after a few years at around £10 million. Also remember that these figures are based on traffic projections which have been exceeded by 200%, so the actual figures are likely to be considerably higher.

There are many heritage railways struggling to survive and many heritage schemes that have already failed before being completed or are in a moribund state.

Would our efforts in this forum not be better placed in trying to help some of these other schemes or perhaps even congratulate the FR on a genuine success story?

To criticise one of the few success stories on the UK railway scene seems to me to be disingenuous to say the least. Can it all be down to sour grapes and the great green god jealousy?

If your pet railway project is on its last legs, do something about it. Don't vent your anger on one of the few bits of good news around. It's not the FR's fault other railway schemes aren't a success. Try to learn from their example rather than just sniping from the sidelines.

 

Neither the FR/WHR side nor the WHHR side are faultless now or in the past. I heartily agree with those who are depressed by the tone of some of the postings on this topic and am only relieved that the poorish loadings observed when I travelled just after Easter did not prove to be the norm.

Robert Fairlie was once described as an "incorrigible controvertialist" and this thread seems to be plagued by such as he. I am starting a thread where people can post information about business on the Welsh lines in 2009. Hopefully it can remain free from rancour and if lit dies from lack of support, so be it.

 

No matter who wins the UK general election next year it is becoming clear there will be big cuts in public expenditure in order to get a grip on the national debt. How likely is this 'snailtrack' idea to be a spending priority?

After they spent so many years building it - where exactly do you want them to go?

Also reported here The proposer (entrepreneur Colin Dale, 61, from Essex) contrasts his own low cost proposals with "the massive and costly projects to RENOVATE old railways like the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland”.

 

Absolutely minimal, but can one can always dream. I can not see it happening within the next ten years but afterthat as political agendas change, if the green, public transport lobby gets a voice who knows

I would love them to stay on the FR/WHR but past experience has shown that many who volunteer to build a railway as that is where there interest lies do not stay on as volunteers afterwards. Some do yes but may of "the Gwerns" and "the Deviasionsists" who built the TR and FR extesions in the 70s/80s moved on to other projects once they were complete. It may be different with regard to the WHR but nobody can be certain

 

Well i'm not depressed at all, it's about time the cards were laid out on the table. The tramway proposals are for real, how many million times must i repeat myself ? The WHR is a fiasco, the FR so full of secrecy, so much waste of tax payers money, so much waste of energy, i could go on forever. I see the the WHR as it is now, a bit like a narrow gauge disneyland, it's a false heritage railway, a bit tacky. If you are going to rebuild a railway, you try to put it back as close as possible to what it was like before, within the context of today, but always keeping the essential base idea, i mean, i really thought that was the idea, no ?. You don't bulldoze your way through, with gigantic Garratts, overscale track, false coaching stock, all constructed on the basis of having ripped the project from someone else. Respect other peoples opinions, try to see things their way, stop insulting with silly little insults those that disagree with you, try to give a little class to an otherwise pitiful debate, stop automatically criticising other people, because they think differently to you !!!! In many ways i would prefer the WHR to have stayed the way it was, i am disapointed in all of you. R

 

Surely though a railway built to as close as original would be more of a fiasco as the length of trains the like of Russell can pull would never be sufficient to pay there way. Also what is meant by "overscale track" I thought it has been built to the origonal gauge?

 

Totally agree. Some posts may be seen as some as a bit depressing, mine included, especially by those who are enthusiastic supporters of the FR/WHR.

However I am trying to look at from a neutral perspective and my views are not specific to the WHR. As a supporter of public transport by rail in generaal my views would apply equally to any railway that was newly built with a large amount of public money. And that is ideally they should be rebuilt to cater for the tourist manrket and the public transport market as far as possible. I hold the same view with regard to my loacl line in the Isleof Man. I would love to see the introduction of some modern transport on it so it could run a public transport service as well as a tourist attraction

I am full of praise for what has been achieved and pleased that it is a sucess although I do take the view that the WDA/Millenium Agency should take a large amount of credit as without there funding it probably would not have happened or not within the present timescale

 

But you can not put it back to what it was as most of the rolling stock and locomotives no longer exist. I see no problem with building a tourist steam railway on an old line if there is market for it, which presently there clearly appears to be.

 

lostlogin, i think the reason for the suspicion is because you say similar things as Mr R does but just in a long winded and rambling way - its almost like a good cop/bad cop routine! The way that you were so prevalent when he was barely giving one word answers, but have dissapeared since he started being more engaging, only reinforces that idea.

Granted, perhaps you arent connected in any way, but i hope you understand how strange it is that there's suddenly all this interest from several people on having a subsidised public service on one of the lines least suited to it. I can think of a dozen other private lines where it would be much more practical, yet people (on this forum at least) are realistic enough to realise that local authorities are not going to pour money into something which isnt going to pay - why the same sense of realism doesnt apply to the WHR, in an area where a much more convenient bus service struggles, baffles me.

Its like banging my head against a wall, but i'll say it again. The WAG and local council are not going to pay the WHR to compete with a more useful, more extensive and quicker but loss making bus service which the former subsidised the creation of and the latter is paying to keep going.

Chris

 

I agree presently they are not and it is unlikely they will in the forseeable future but prioritiese change over time. There are proposals now to open lines that Beeching closed. Originally could you have envisaged the Welsh Government funding the railway to the extent they have.

The point I have made I have made from an early stage and I appreciate that the WHR is probably best suited to being just a heritage/tourist railway but and this is why I have raised the point from an early stage the FR in its proposals to reopen the line and in support of funding specifically stated that it would reduce traffice on the roads. I take that to mean that they saw the railway being able to function as a means of public transport. I choose to belive that is the case and believe that the FR genuinely believe that to be the case. If I and they did not believe that then presumably they only made such statements to obtain public money which I would find unacceptable

 

I'm not quite sure how you see 'black5' as 'looking for a fight' - let's look at what he/she said:

That is a statement of fact which has been accepted by just about every living being that has even heard of the WHR.

That is a question, which you have failed to answer.

You criticise the WHR for not 'try(ing) to put it back as close as possible to what it was like before, within the context of today' BUT from what we have gleaned from your ramblings, your proposal is to use electric trams and run an 'express' service - neither of which are exactly '(as) close as possible to what it was like before' are they? You also mention false coaching stock - the coaches were built for the new WHR so how can they be false? Just because they are built to a 'heritage' design, that does not make them false-I have yet to find anywhere that the WHR are claiming that the coaches are heritage vehicles.
If you are restoring a heritage railway, then yes, you put it back as close as possible to original, BUT the FR has always said that the WHR is a tourist railway so it needs to operate on a commercial basis. It needs long trains and powerful locos for this. Those are facts. Whether those trains are heritage carriages and steam engines or lightweight new carriages with diesel locos - the fact is that the original WHR locos would not be able to either 1) haul the length of train required to make a profit or 2) have sufficient power to keep to the timetable. It has been proved time and time again that steam is a draw for visitors, so therefore the FR got powerful steam engines to fulfil all the criteria.

Perhaps 'renovater' instead of merely hinting at, and playing stupid cat and mouse games over what your proposals ACTUALLY are, you would be good enough to set out EXACTLY what you are proposing including; what rolling stock you propose to use, what staffing levels you will have, what involvement volunteers will have, what level of timetable you propose and how this will vary during the year, how much your proposals have been costed at and where the money will come from. Has a proper business case been compiled showing predicted profit/loss over the first 3 years for your plan?
You say you have received support for your plans - who from, and what sort of proposition was made to these people/authorities? (Writing a letter to the local Council who reply with 'Thank you for your letter, it's contents will be looked at in due course' is NOT support). How many people are involved with you? You keep saying that the WHR is a 'fiasco' - please expand on this - in what way is it a fiasco? Please do not make statements like this without showing evidence to back it up.

When you start to answer some of the above questions, then people might start taking you seriously. And before you say that you do not need to take people on here
seriously, I would remind you that people power can be a very strong tool. Volunteers, shareholders, tourists, residents and employees will not give up their railways easily and could force a public enquiry and multiple legal cases if compulsory purchase orders were ever issued.

Why? Maybe if we had the FULL FACTS of your plan then we'd be able to give you detailed support or criticism, but as you have only hinted at what you are proposing then we must take you at face value - as someone wanting to destroy 2 successful railways.


Keith (who DOES put his real name to his posts)