Nameplates back on black Dukedog

Given that Joe Public probably prefer a "namer", and added to the fact that Joe Public's hard earned keeps the railway running, do you not think there's a sound business case for the return of the plates?

And David, do you not feel you might be going a bit over the top with this? If it means that much, whip them off the day before Giants, stick them back on the Monday after. No-one died...

 

As Neil Glaskin said on Yahoo group, who says 9017 is even running at the gala?

Alternatively, if it means that much to you, offer to take em off yourself....

 

So you get pleasure out of annoying people do you? I presume you're not looking for a job in the diplomatic corps then.

 

3200/9000 & 3208/9008 both carried the relevant names (not when they had 90xx numbers) as did the others up to 3212. Those up to 3219 were allocated but never carried. I think all the nameplates were made but just fitted to the Castles.
All the names were allocated in the same sequence to both the 32xx class & the Castles.

 

The things some people will argue about ! Remember the furore when one of the mags had City of Truro done up in BR lined black as an April Fool hoax? That sort of thing happens all year round now.

How many people here actually saw this Dukedog in GWR ownership? Pretty few I would imagine, and not all that many even during BR times.

And the folk who actually pay to ride - do they care what colour the engine is and if it has the right number/name/livery combination? I remember a survey was done once on my local preserved railway and BR/GWR Green was way down the pecking order. As for black whether lined or unlined - forget it ! The colours most preferred ( mainly by the kids without whom visitor numbers would look a bit sick ) were blue, red and yellow. Preferably with big numbers and faces on the front. I wonder where those ideas came from.

 

Here is a message from a friend and fellow long time Bluebell member regarding the Dukedog and the nameplates.

Comments from 80154

Sadly we have many differing points of view and most of what I've read misses the point: The Bluebell has a stated policy of matching correct liveries with correct rolling stock wherever this is operationally possible. They also aspire to being the Southern National Railway Museum and as such they also aspire to provide the general public with a correct interpretation of how railways used to operate and that presumably means getting things right such as signs, signals, nameplates, liveries etc, etc.

The nameplates for the dukedog were indeed possibly made in the 1930's but as everyone knows were never fitted and the "names" were instead transferred to the Castle Class. There is no doubt that the engine looks nice in GWR green with or without the nameplates but it is totally wrong for it to carry those nameplates whilst in BR black. It is also fictitious for it to carry the nameplates in GWR livery but nevertheless, as I have said it does look nice.

There appears to me to be a minority at the Park who seemingly have a continuing grudge against the photographic fraternity for various reasons among which are that "they take all and contribute nothing". Sadly from my experience this is totally wrong. Photters also get stick for not travelling on the trains themselves which is wrong again and I will demonstrate my personal experience later. There are those at the Park who over the years have continually contrived to spoil either Giants of Steam or Branch line weekend with things like silly headboards, teddy bears and pre-grouping headcodes on locos in BR or SR livery.

Now I will come to a bit of reasoned thinking which hopefully the more extreme sides of this argument should take on board, go away and think about it and hopefully accept that there are 10,000 members of the Bluebell. Many of those members are considered by some as nothing more than armchair moaners. I for one do not consider that that is true. Apart from the many dedicated and hugely hard working volunteers there are many members like myself who work 5 days a week and contribute in many other ways with cash dropped in collection boxes, paying for photo charters, getting photos published in the railway press (good free publicity) and also have the intention of becoming a volunteer when work commitments are less. Lets face it, if some people didn't work and hold down jobs then there would be no Bluebell at all!!

I have been a lunch-time photter and visitor to the railway for nearly 20 years now and in that time even when no trains were running, I have put loose change regularly in collecting boxes as a way of saying thank you to an organisation that gives me a chance at lunch-times to chill out from work pressures. I can honestly say that I estimate that I put between £250 and £300 alone into the Horsted Keynes Canopy project box over a period of four years which invariably elicited a "thank you" from the guys working on the project. I therefore consider that having "taken" my photos, I "give" something back. In so doing, what I and I suspect many other members expect is to be treated in a less cavalier manner by "management" who seem to delight in being "controversial". I must add that on special weekends such as Giants or the wartime weekend, I spend at least one day travelling on the line, have lunch at the Bessemer with the wife and now increasingly with the grandchildren and spending money in the shop. In that way I believe that I am more than just an arm chair member who contributes nothing. I also always "bang the drum" about Bluebell whenever I meet up with other enthusiasts at other steam lines. I therefore consider that it is wrong for someone like me to be told that "if you want the nameplates off the Dukedog then you photters ought to stump up to pay for them to be removed (quoting from a respondent on the National Preservation website)

I for one am truly looking forward to seeing the E4 in Southern olive green. I know that it will look an impressive sight and will show a livery that apart from the IOW terrier and the E1 has rarely been seen since the late 40's. I also love Fenchurch in Umber and many others in Non BR livery too. I hear that the P 1178 is to run in an experimental SECR red livery. That'll be nice to see but I have to ask, is there a correct liveried coach to run it with? There are obviously the BR standards that can only be run in various variations of BR livery. But there is such a thing as variety and even with the same loco, variety sparks interest and to see locos in the various "correct" liveries that they sported throughout their lives in service on the big railway is always a joy to behold. I also understand that the H, contrary to earlier expectations of other liveries is to be put back into SE&CR green as it has twice before. Hmmm...variety, no sadly that's very boring. Oh and before I get a deluge of vilification for saying that, surely although it is a splendid livery, it is a high cost livery and one which does not weather too well and yes I recognise that at least the loco is in steam and cared for. But where is the authentic variety that proves such a winner with the public? Hence, my feelings that locos should carry at least one different livery during the period of their boiler ticket. The E4 was a case in point and no-one can deny that it generated a huge amount of interest in both liveries including many photo charters which DO CONTRIBUTE GOOD WILL AND CASH!!

Oh and don't forget that one of the line's Bullieds actually officially carried BR maroon livery!!! I remember seeing several in Maroon at Liverpool Street.

I make no bones about this; I believe that there is a small minority at the Park with an axe to grind against what they do not like: Photters in general and locos in BR livery in particular.

Roy Watts has often stated in the Bluebell magazine that the aim of the Bluebell is to run wherever operationally possible the right locos with the right train. This sadly does not seem to be conveyed down to what happens in reality especially on special weekends which are widely touted in the enthusiast press.

Lets see more livery variety as and when possible. Next year is a big year and after all a huge amount of cash and good will comes from the enthusiast / photographer fraternity so please don't allow a minority to stick two fingers up at the hand that feeds them.

regards,

80154

 

Bulleids in maroon ? When was that?

34059 did spend some time at 30A Stratford and worked out of Liverpool Street in about 1949-50 as did one or two other light Pacifics, but I've never heard that they were in maroon at that time. I feel sure 80154 is wrong about that. AFAIK they were in Southeren Malachite Green with British Railways lettring on the tenders.

 

I think he's talking about the line's Bulleid carriages, not the locos.

Chris & Tom, basically what I cant believe about the Dukedog is that there was just no thought process that went into it. 9017 is now a majorly popular loco with the enthusiasts now it's black and well was nameplateless and we have our biggest enthusiast gala of the year coming up next month. So why not just hold back a few weeks for Giants, heavily publicise it in the mags that Giants will be the last 3 days we can see the Dukedog without nameplates. So photters/enthusiasts get down to our gala, ride behind it, phot it and spend money on our railway as this will be your last chance with 9017 nameplateless. Instead no, it's done on the quiet and sly and yes I'm sure to wind-up us enthusiasts. There does seem to be an element of anti photter/enthusiasts brigade within the Bluebell membership/management that is intent on ruining everything to satisfy their whim.

 

Further reply from 80154;

80154 meant maroon Bullied Coaches

It's true that most Joe Publics don't give a toss what colour the engine or coaches are as long as there's a clean seat and a puffer at the front. But, the Bluebell does have an officially stated policy to try and have correct liveries, coaches, periods etc, etc and in the main it achieves that. That's the quality side of the railway but it gets let down by those who periodically set out to wind others up and essentially spoil their day particularly when the lineside is covered in orange vests!

80154

 

This so called anti-photter brigade have probably materialised because people come along and kick up an enormous fuss over a tiny detail. As i said, instead of wittering on about it here and drumming up some sort of support as well as putting peoples backs up, go to Sheffield Park, talk to the relevant person and ask if the nameplates can be removed, better still, ask to remove them yourself and thus enabling the guys who work hard to put these locomotives into traffic do just that!!!!

As for 80154's comments, and of course others here, I guess we shouldn't paint Bluebell in blue, nor should Fenchurch been in Umber with its name, likewise, the H tank is going into SECR lined green...and people still kick up a fuss because "they've seen it before". I don't see people whinging because the railway has 2 Mark 1's in Blood and Custard with B4 bogies under it (it beggars belief that no-one bats an eyelid unless a locomotive is involved)! Yes, its incorrect but its not such a big deal, if YOU want to see something done YOUR way then do something about it instead of bleating on about it here.

 

Although at least one of the above was seen at a photo charter on 26th August to launch 2526?

 

No he didn't. He meant maroon BULLEID coaches.
Take 100 lines David : "I must spell Bulleid correctly."

 

Perhaps the 2 finger up-sticking minority are allowed to get on with the jobs that the feeding hands want to see instead of wasting some removing some nameplates.

I notice David, and consequently 80154 has made no mention to the fact they can quite easily do it themselves, or at least ask. What do you want to happen? Sit in front of the computer moaning until someone else does it?

If YOU want those plates gone, go and remove them....if the department turn round and say "no they're staying on", then come back and moan about that, but at least you made an effort to ask?! Don't sit there and bash out a post before you have acted on it.

And referring to a previous comment, where does it say it is even running at Giants of Steam? What happens if the thing is over the pit having a washout that weekend....come on, don't tip toe round the questions. Answer them, if you have a perfectly good reason for not doing it then fine by me! But so far I have said this more than once and you just carry on regardless pointing out details about locomotives past

 

'Christ,

Having 'paint frothers' is one thing, but now we have 'nameplate frothers'.

Whatever next?

 

You mean like this?

 

Liveries again

It is true that the crimson and cream coaches have B4 bogies instead of the BR4 they were built with, but they were originally made, I believe - and I might be in error, during the period when crimson and cream was BR's standard colour. It is also true that the Bluebell's four wheel coaches have a PMV chassis not a reproduction of their original chassis and that 'Blackmoor Vale' is replete with BR modifications that might disqualify it from being in malachite green.

But does it really matter? I don't think so, not at all. What matters to me is the overall effect. And, generally, that overall effect is achieved more often on the Bluebell than anywhere else.

I know this might sound perverse, but if I were making a model railway it would matter to me, but in the full size railway - what I look for atmosphere not complete accuracy. And notwithstanding a profound difference of view about many, far too many for comfort, aspects of the railway, the Bluebell achieves that atmosphere far more often than any other railway. Long may it be so.

Taking up your suggestion 'if YOU want to see something done YOUR way then do something about it instead of bleating on about it here', the politics of the Bluebell Railway are far too much like those of the vipers nest for my taste. I wonder what would be the reaction in the C&W Dept if somebody turned up who wanted to change the crimson and cream carriage' bogies to BR4s or wanted to make the chassis of the four wheelers more prototypical. I think they would be told in no uncertain terms that their presence was utterly unwelcome as have others in the past over issues that are more trivial.

I can understand the frustration that you and others feel about the criticisms made here and elsewhere, but if the perhaps the Bluebell Railway was a 'broader church', was more tolerant of deeply held convictions and had a management which knew how to harness the passions of its members who are not 'on message' the railway would benefit.

Please don't think that I'm criticising you in person, I'm not. It is the atmosphere of intolerance at SP which goads me. The Bluebell is in great need in these straitened times; it gets less help than it ought because too many good people have been driven away causing others, like me, to doubt if they would want to take an active part in the railway. The atmosphere and its consequences are utterly corrosive.

Regards

 

I would imagine there probably was a fair bit. As I mentioned earlier, the business case, logical thinking by the board in terms of summer season and kiddies running around. Only disappointment with that is that it didn't come sooner. As pointed out earlier, the public aren't fussed about such things as authenticity, they like to see engines with names on. Therefore, surely it stands to reasons that the public (who fund perhaps 90% of the income) gets the nod over the enthusiast (who pays in 10%).

Was. Enthusiasts are a fickle bunch and will soon latch on to the next big thing. Look at the way they were in uproar about Green Arrow when it bowed out, nowadays it's largely forgotten about. What about all the froth which surrounded the returns of Truro, KE1, Bittern etc, now they're all "regulars" they're nothing like as interesting, or so it seems. The market for the black 'dog was waning anyway, or that's the way it seemed, when, for example, was the last time you saw it in a major publication? I can't remember it. Bearing in mind that the E4 will soon be back, that's going to grab the headlines, as will the visit of 'Lamiel'.

Or, as Tom says, it might not be running at all. Or, why not just take them off again for Giants? It's hardly the most complicated job the workshop have to do, although I can think of 100 better things they could be doing than pandering to a few dozen photters who haven't been clever enough to go and get a photo of it yet. Is that what all this is about, David, that you haven't got your picture yet and thus this makes this a catastrophe for you?

And if they turn up and it's not running...? The engine isn't going anywhere, it's the same engine as when it's green, just it's a different colour. If colour is that important to you then maybe a readjustment of priorities is called for?

There's a difference between it being done "on the sly" and just not bothering to tell the world. For example, if 1638 springs a small leak and is patched up prior to service, is that a repair done in secrecy just because there isn't a full photo report and assosciated news story of the repair on the Bluebell website the next day? Or is it just common sense that it's not worth going into detail about.

CLICKY

 

Liveries again

Deleted because it's a duplicate post!