WHR General Discussion.

Why can't it be both, perhaps a bit like the Hartz system in Germany. In the height of the summer season it could run steam based services, with a greater frequency. In the winter season it could run a basic steam service over the most scenic part of the line (around Rhyd Ddu - Beddgelert area) supplimented by a type of railcar over the other parts of the system to provide a service?

Just a thought, for debate, as ever.

 

I don't think hair splitting takes the discussion forward. For example, last year I drove with my wife from Sussex to Eskdale, Cumbria to walk and enjoy the countryside. One day we caught a train from Irton Road to Dalegarth, walked up to Scafell via Cam Spout and back down via Burnmoor Tarn to Dalegarth and the train back again. Last week, we caught the train from Pulborough to Arundel and then walked back along the Arun. No difference in the purpose of the rail journey but I don't think many people would describe La'al Ratty as public transport. The WHR is somewhere in between.

Cheers
Alan

 

The economics of a railcar/tramcar/multiple unit were looked at a few pages ago and just dont seem worth it compared to running an ordinary, existing carriage set especially as it would probably need to be custom built.

With regards to the Harz comparison, that system is a large network connecting a variety of towns and villages, the only substantial population centre along the WHR is Beddgelert, and with so few tourists around traffic isnt an issue (nor the demand for a viable steam sevice, except santa's).

Chris

 

The Harz is still largely a tourist system in any case. Trains to the Brocken are almost always packed and I suspect the income from that service helps fund trains south of Drei Annen Hohne, almost all of which are diesel railcars with nowhere near the level of patronage.

 

Your quite right Alan, i too wouldnt call the R&ER public transport because i find it unlikely that there were enough other people doing the same as you to have covered the costs of that train outside of the summer season. There certainly arent enough walkers to cover the costs of a WHR train, even the bus service deliberately set up for the purpose requires heavy subsidy.

Both lines, like most if not all private railways rely mostly on people doing lengthy, or full, round-trips to cover the costs of the train. Thats not to say that walkers, local residents etc arent welcome extra revenue but they arent alone going to cover the costs of trains specifically aimed at them.

Chris

 

When petrol/diesel reaches £10 per gallon, things may change. At present, leisure use (either ramblers or people coming to ride the trains for their own sake) is what pays for the operation, but a day to day transport role may well evolve. This is why main line connections are so welcome, and are a growing trend.

John

 

Can't understand why some people think that there should be a public transport type winter service on the WHR using rail cars - when the faster more convenient bus service only operates due to a massive council subsidy.

Just face it - there's no market there!

 

Didn't the FR once run a DMU style service by using a diesel loco and some kind of multi-working system through to a (now) observation car???

Will

 

I disagree, I believe there is a market there and in terms of operating costs a potentially profitable one, especially at weekends. I also accept the lack of suitable rolling stock and the cost makes such an idea a non starter.

In my view though bus and rail service are completely different animals and do not necessarily attract the same people. The changes of me parking my car and catching a bus to a destination are basically nil, parking the card and getting the train are pretty high.

 

Hi Lostlogin.
I'm intrigued with what you say. Do you disagree because you have some actual evidence that there is a market? Or is just that you have a 'gut feeling'? I think any commercial enterprise would need such evidence, and that coming from an analogous (albeit not identical) system - the bus - does not suggest there is a market. If reputable surveys showed otherwise, that'd be a different matter of course. Introspective evidence based on one person does not really count, I fear.

 

Of course it is a personal opinion as I have not arranged for a large comprehensive survey to be done. Much of what we post here is a personal opinion.

I understand the argument that as there is a bus service providing a similar service which does not presently find a market place but I believe that people have markedly different opinions in respect of bus and train journeys. I very rarely use buses as public transport but I do trains and trams. There is no train or tram service from where I live to the nearest town, there is a bus service. I do not use the latter but if the former existed I would use it just as I did when I lived in an area where a train service was available.

You could have also used the same argument against rebuilding the line i.e. bus and coach operators already provided a service in the area, but as passenger figures show people like doing it by train.

 

Err, just one question really: Why ?!

Surely if you want to get from point A to point B, you use whatever transport system is available. If there is a bus link but no train link, why would you not use it?

It just doesn't sound rational to me!

I too would have a preference for rail transport, but if it wasn't available, would not object to using bus, taxi or coach (for public transport) if I needed or wanted to. Indeed, where I live, the nearest main-line Network Rail stations are 24 miles to the South (Carmarthen) or 28 miles to the North (Aberystwyth - including Vale of Rheidol narrow gauge as well) - there are 2 railways nearer to me, both are heritage tourist lines! (2 foot gauge Teifi Valley 5 miles away, and standard gauge Gwili around 22 miles) - so no rail transport for me unfortunately. I'd still use the bus if I needed to (well, if there was a decent bus service out here in the sticks - hence the unfortunate need for a car, not out of choice but of necessity).

I'm not having a go or anything, just curious about the reason for your "prejudice" against non-rail public transport.

 

There's no doubt people prefer train travel over bus travel.

...but thats because there is some kind of advantage for doing so. What advantage is there using the WHR instead of the car or the bus? People are not going to go much further than 10 or 15 miles on it in either direction, journey times are massively longer, only a few stations are even near a sizeable number of houses so people would need to take the bus (or car) to get to them, and its more expensive as well.

The WHR simply cant compete, and besides, the Sherpa is far more useful to outlying communities than the WHR could ever be, taking some of its passengers away doesnt seem very helpful to me. While its never a bad thing to get people out of their cars, im afraid that the Welsh Highland is completely unsuitable.

Chris

 

What is the advantage of riding the WHR rather than doing the equivalent journey by car or bus. In terms of time, cost ettc cleraly done but loads of people seem to enjoy doing it.

I am not a psychologist so I can not explain why I and other people prefer train travel to bus or coach travel but many clearly do. Maybe it is just down to a certain level of enjoyment and relation in letting the train take the strain, certainly I find the train a lot more comfortable.

You keep saying the WHR cannot compete with Sherpa and I accept that, but that argument only stands up if the only passengers available are those who currently use Sherpa and their sole criteria for choosing Sherpa is price and convenience. I believe there is a market for train travel and this is an additional market to the people who currently use the Sherpa bus.

In fact your argument could have been used against rebuilding the WHR as a whole or any other line i.e. why would people travel by train when they could travel on the existing bus service.

I believe there is a market for train travel in the area, especially at weekends in the winter. I would happily leave the car at say Dinas and use for a ride to a nice pub for lunch, or a walk or both whereas I would not use the bus. However I agree with Saggin Dragon that “the costs of developing, building and certification of a modern diesel railcar set(s) for the WHR still keeps this whole idea in the realms of fantasy for the time being”.

 

Interestingly there are several parties currently working together on developing 2ft gauge diesel railcars, and they are well aware that the idea may suit the Welsh Highland in the future. Watch this space!


Charlie

 

People travel on the WHR because it is a tourist attraction - it offers great views you dont see from the road and a journey behind a steam engine in heritage-style carriages. Its a day out, and an enjoyable and traffic-free way to visit Beddgelert and the Aberglaslyn Pass.

However, providing a viable, attractive public transport service is a whole different kettle of fish. The only sizeable, and well served settlement on the WHR is Beddgelert - its a 10-15min drive to Port, and a 20-25min drive to Caernarfon - there is no way the WHR can compete with that, however much people prefer travelling by train.

Chris

 

I appreciate that you do not appear to want to hear an alternative opinion, and that what it is purely opinion. I live in the Isle of Man where we have a fairly decent bus service, now OK many locals may have resident cards, and the OAPs have free bus and rail passes but when the trains are going you will see many locals use it rather than the bus despite the buses and cars being much quicker.

When the TT and MGP are on they put commuter trains on at the same prices on the buses and they are used. In fact they were even used the first year when the cost was twice the bus fair. That shows there is a market. Equally I am aware of plenty of families who on occasion pay to travel to Douglas on the electric tram in winter to go shopping, it is part of the day out and others who go to Laxey for lunch. It eats nicely into a wet weekend!

Now I understand that the WHR may offer great views you dont see from the road and a journey behind a steam engine in heritage-style carriages just like the IoM Railway. I also appreciate that it is a day out, and an enjoyable and traffic-free way to visit Beddgelert and the Aberglaslyn Pass. What I do not get is only tourits will do it and then only behind a steam engine in heritate carriages. If that was the case the WHR would not operate about 30% of its non steam hauled.

My view is that people will choose to travel on the line for a variety of reasons, not just related to being tourists if given the opportunity. Your opinion is different fine we just have a difference of opinion

 

I don't think that your example really proves your point there LL. During the IoM TT etc the place is thronging with visitors i.e. tourists. If these commuter trains ran at other times then you would have a valid point.

 

Yes but the trains are aimed for and used by locals going to and from work not by tourists. The latter tend to think two wheels good and four wheels bad. I am not sure what they think of six wheels with smoke coming out of one end. I would also say that whilst the TT is busy the MGP is far less so and countered by the number of us who get off the rock during the TT.

A few years back when the line was relaid for for I think 40mph running there was a call for the Government to get some form of modern traction mutiple units in in and run commutertrains all round. The public said there was a demand and they would use but the consultants said it was not worth the capital cost. Having relaid the line to run at 40mph you do wonder why they did not take advantage of this as it seems a waste otherwise. In my view the contracts the IoM Railways staff are under or where under did not help.

Rather like the WHR I do believe there is an element of the population in the IoM who would use the trains year round if there was a reasonable quick modern service. But equally like the WHR the capital cost prohibits such an idea.

However these are only my personal views and I as I have admitted before I many well be wrong