Come in Mk1, Your time is up.

I hope you don't mean the air-con version. Earlier ones like the Green Train are ok. One snag with MK2's is that they can't be dual braked, either vac or air. Therefore air only ones obviously can't be used with vac only locos.

 

A MK1 lookealike would be the best bet with crash worthyness up to say 110MPH and central locking hidden with the door frames should cover all the bases health and safety wise.

The big problem with this idea is unsuprisingly cost, design and construction would be astronomical, only way it would be remotely feasible would be for mass order to bring the overall costs down, say all the mainline charter operators and a good deal of preserved lines too.

Another problem and sticking point would be would the Likes of DB whos charter business is a very small fraction of their work be able to justify spending such a huge amount for such a limited return ?, WCRC and other dedicated charter operators would have even less finance to play with in this respect.

The idea is sound but i honestly can't see who is going to pay for it, a replica coach or two for the Welshpool & Llanfair is one thing, a mass fleet intended for mainline charter work is quite another.

Converting Air Con Mk2's to the pressure ventilated type seems the best bet currently to me, with braking set to each operators requirements.

 

Some years ago the HSE did some crash testing of MK1 stock at Rowsley to check a possible adaptation - a cup and cone (I think) Not sure of the results but it did look spectacular

 

Forgot to add earlier, if your going to have a crash at 90MPH + then you in deep proverbial regardless of the stock, Branson was laxing lyrical about 390's after Lambrigg, but that was a just a derailment, not a high speed collision.

 

Some coaches are starting to face over £100k restorations...
Given the 350 units for LMR are around £250k per vehicle, with AC/PA gadgets etcs... it's not that far out..

Maybe take the "bus" approach.. make a standard chassis / bogies / safety equipment and let the purchasers build their own body kits... at least the bottom half / safety aspects become "standard" and this is the part in bulk.

 

Trouble is, I don't think modern coaching stock has a separate chassis....

 

The separate chassis (underframe) of Pacers is why they are not very good in a crash. They have just managed to avoid a lot of crashes in London commuter land. Which is what seems to be the main problem with Mark 1s.
As for mark 2s, if you had ever seen one with its ends stripped for corrosion repair, a few days after running at 100mph on mainline, when you wonder what was holding the roof up, no one would be advocating them as safer than Mark 1s.

 

I think we will end up with Mk 3 coaches, it's just that a generator car will become standard in every rake and that certain lines may become off-limits due to the C3 gauge. Plus the extra weight of course...

Regards,

Dan

 

If that happens, you might as well travel in an HST. Also the end of vac only locos.

 

Rather than a new design how about new-build Mk1s?

 

Is there any reason a Bulleid coach wouldnt be registered for main line ?, there quite close to a Mark 1 ..

Maybe a cheaper solution to replacing mark 1's would be storing them under cover ? - coaches need loving too

 

At the moment, I am not aware of any moves from "officialdom" to insist on the replacement of Mark 1s, so perhaps it might be best not to give the idea that it is something that could be done easily! It is, actually, illegal to use Mark 1 vehicles on the mainline but exemptions are available and held by all the opertaors who use them. Similarly, exemptions from separate rules on Secondary Door Locks and Accessibilty are available and have at least a few years to run before renewal is required.

Loco hauled coaches are still being built for use in other parts of the world, but they are, of course, too large for the UK loading guage!

 

Bulleid coaches may look similar to a Mk 1, but in terms of construction they are closer to a Gresley teak carriage. They have timber body frames and roofs. Like a Gresley (or Thompson) carriage they are a little more crashworthy than their LMS or GWR contemporaries by virtue of the fact that they have Pullman gangways and buckeye couplings.

 

New Mk1's would have the same problems for Mainline use as current Mk1's, hence my suggestion for a "Mock MK1" with the problems eradicated, though there's nothing to stop someone cooking up a Big 4 style coach design that meets modern requirements should you desire a rake of Collett's, Teaks etc, take for example a timber bodied coach with seperate underframe, i suggest modifiying the design to all steel (or other suitable metal) vehicle with the body and frame as one unit with the required strength for crash worthyness and central locking built into the panelling, all the modern adjustments could be hidden behind a period finish, we have being doing the same with locomotives for years with Air Brakes, TPWS etc.

That said that's really a money no object solution, i still think conversion of Air Con MK'2's to the PV variety is the way to go, but we'll cross that bridge IF we come to it.

Another headache for any new rolling stock now is that rentention tanks for the toilets are a requirement.

 

Intersting discussion but I think the chances of designing and building heritage look-a-like vehicles for excursions is remote going towards zero on grounds of costs alone particulary when you think about costs icurred for verification of design, type approval and crash testing etc. Soon or later the good old mark 1 will get its marching orders from the main line due to exemptions running out or just because of the amount of money needing to be spent on each vehicle to keep it running. Remember they were only designed for 20 years or so use and now most are over half a century old - well beyond design life and many looking like it. I would guess that main line steam will need to be compatible with what ever is available to haul in the long term be it mark 2, mark 3 and beyond.

 

A lot of earlier Mk2s i.e. with opening windows have got extensive and expensive corrosion problems, often hidden away. Let's hope Mk1s (far more straightforward to repair) can keep going with barrier vehicles.

Lordy

 

I agree with Maunsell Man the costs of design-approval etc make for a low liklihood of a completely new design, which is why I suggested the idea of a new-build Mk1. A new build need not preclude the kind of design & manufacturing improvements which no doubt have been applied to recent Mk1 rebuilds or soon will be. Authorisation might still be required for new design elements but would this not be easier and cheaper to obtain than for a completely new design?

There may be an alternative, more incremental, approach in that many re-builds in future might not be too far removed from a new build in any case. A (non-Mk1) example of this is outlined in the Heritage Railway(current issue) account of the VSOE Pullman maintenance operation. In recent years many modifications have been made to these vehicles including strengthening underframes, and rebuilding timber body elements in metal where appropriate. But this has enabled VSOE to keep in main line use a fleet of carriages originally built in the 1920s and 30s. And presumably they expect to for many years to come since they are currently converting a pair of ex Brighton Belle driving-motors to be used as barrier vehicles, replacing the currently used Mk1s which don't match the rest of the train quite so well.

 

The problem with a new Mk1 batch is i can't see certification of any new vehicles to the design being allowed as opposed to those already in use or existence.

I agree any new design stock the price would be astronomical to the extent it isn't really a goer, hence why im advocastiong bashing opening windows into Mk2's and ripping out the air con, in theory once so treated they woulden't be any different to the rakes Tyseley & WCRC use.

 

Eth(even without air con) & air brake only. They will need a genny car(in winter) & air brake only locos.

 

There's are a few geny cars knocking about if needbe, the air brakes can be replaced by vacuum brakes if thats what the operator desires, it's dual braking that's a problem on Mk2's rather than one or the other system.