LNER B17 Class

Given B17's were widespread in East Anglia, when a lot of their workings were replaced with B1's and Brits, presumably they were transferred to other area's (didn't the GC have some ?), perhaps these rough riding unfamiliar loco's found little favour compared to say B1's or V2's which were more familiar to crews and more suited to the job in hand ?.

 

Just had a look at the allocations and withdrawal dates in the "Xpress Locomotive Register
Vol 3". All were withdrawn from Great Eastern sheds. None were transfered elsewhere.
It is interesting to note that some where allocated to Colwick and Woodford Halse during 1950/51.

 

You're right about the rapid withdrawals. I'vee just looked in some old Ian Allen ABCs.
Summer 1959 edition; "Class B2 & B17"; B2 - 5, B17/1 - 2, B17/4 - 2, B17/6 - 33.
Winter 1960/61 edition; "Class B17" - 1.

 

A quote from lner.info confirming they all ended up on the GE section prior to nationalisation.
"The first B17s ran the Cambridge services, where they were popular locomotives with both the public and the railwaymen. Rarely-named black 4-4-0s had been replaced with named green 4-6-0s! The Colchester line showed some teething problems including a major derailment, but the enginemen quickly grew to like these new locomotives. The services from London to Ipswich were not such a great success. This line had a number of banks which caused problems for the heavier trains. Throughout their lives, the B17s would continue to be more popular with the Cambridge crews than with the Ipswich crews.
As more B17s were delivered, they would work more services including the cross-country service from Ipswich to Manchester. They were also a popular choice for East Anglia's heavy boat trains. Later B17s from 1936 with the larger tenders were allocated further afield to Leicester, Sheffield, Neasden, and Gorton. The Sheffield and Leicester B17s replaced older Great Central Atlantics. Although much more powerful, the B17s were never very popular at these sheds. After the outbreak of World War 2, the Great Central District B17s would move to East Anglia.
The B17s would become restricted to the GE District for which they were designed. On a number of occasions in the late 1930s, building B17s for the North Eastern District was considered. However it was always decided to build either K3 2-6-0 or V2 2-6-2 locomotives instead. Both types were more powerful and considered more useful for the North East."

 

It was the GC B17's that made me believe they were more widespread than what they were, if they never strayed much from Anglia is it likely the 3 cylinder layout made them unsuitable for lesser duties some would be relegated to ?, without trawling through the technical data did they have Gresley's conjugated valve gear ?, this was certainly problematic when not properly maintained.

They were designed specifically for the GE and a specific need, once replaced on that need they were not ideal for much else is what i suspect.

 

They did indeed have Gresley's derived motion but IIRC it was applied differently than on his Pacifics. The B17s were unique amongst Gresley 6 coupled, three cylinder locos on that they had divided drive. The middle cylinder drove the leading coupled axle. This put the cylinder ahead of the two outside cylinders and thus the derived motion was behind rather than in front of the middle cylinder.

 

I don't know the answer to the question posed but I can hazard a guess. The GE lines were the first to get the main line diesels in any quantity and this inevitably led to cascading of locos. The almost new Britannias ousted the B1's which again, were relatively new. B1's were, power wise, at least the equal of the B17's and probably a more useful and better piece of kit as far as the operating guys were concerned. So, where do you cascade the B17's to? Looking further afield, there doesn't appear to be much in the way of express turns that would suit 6'-8" coupled wheels and which were still using old locos in 1960. Regional prejudices being what they were, I'd guess that the only places likely to even consider them would be the ex LNER lines and I can't think of any turns that would be suitable for them.

 

I could be wrong on this point but wasn't there a realisation on the introduction of the Brittania's that fewer loco's could cover more turns ?, perhaps this made some B17's surplus to requirements ?.

Certainly they coulden't venture to places where say the diet motive power was J15's, and even the fastest fitted freights would be unsuitable for a 3 cylinder loco's with 6'8 drivers.

 

There was still plenty of suitable work for Jubilees in 1960. They started to go when the work dried up. The last few, on the LM lines out of Leeds, were more family pets by 1966/7 and some, albeit unsuitable, work was found for them midweek, leaving them available for more appropriate work, such as enthusiasts specials and Royal trains, when required.

 

Didn't Jubs appears on Reliefs & Footex's and suchlike and until quite neare the end too ?, certainly sees Holbeck found more suitable work than mostly freight for them.

Although this begs the question why coulden't B17's be found similar duties ?, perhaps the Midland/North Eastern region had more traffic of this type ?.

 

Far from it. The "Scotch Goods" was a regular Kings Cross top link turn and A4s were a regular on this - three cylinders and 6' 8" drivers were no hindrance to them on that particular duty.

 

The problem with the B17s was that they were lightly built to comply with weight restrictions on the GE Section of the LNER. They had trouble with frames cracking soon after they were new, and that plus boiler defects could well be the reason for early withdrawals in the 1950s.

For further information see the RCTS publication 'Locomotives of the LNER' part 2B.

For a new build I'd suggest a bit of beefing up in the vital areas.

 

Eightpot has hit the nail on the head there. Even with the reduced weight of thiner bits, some GER lines still had to have their axle weight limits rasied. Belive that Gresely had left most of the design work to North British who built the first batch, and they stuggled.

If you think about it alot of engines suffered as diesels came in, the GWR 'Kings' after diesels came couldn't really do anything else thanks to their very high axle load. The South Eastern 4-4-0's had a similar fate once the 3rd rail went live in Kent, etc. during 1959-1961. The other Southern Region lines already had plenty of Bullieds and new 'Standards' together with a few Maunsell designs like the 'Schools', all of which were more modern then SER 4-4-0S. The B17s together with their componate issues had no chance.

 

Was this a fitted freight though ? i've seen cine footage of A4's on freight going somewhat brisker than your plodding 2-8-0!, certainly a duty calling for speeds in excess of 40MPH would be more suited to such loco's.

 

The Scotch goods (266 Down) was a fitted freight. It was legendary and regularly A4 hauled. Although, strictly speaking such freights were limited to 55mph, there is one well-known occasion when a certain driver Bill Hoole was at the regulator and the Scotch Goods, which was running late due to operational problems, was held at Peterborough to allow the Talisman to pass. Once the express had passed and the signals cleared Bill set off and, by Retford, had caught up with the Talisman, which was THE East Coast Express of the time.

 

Steve has already replied but yes it was fully fitted and certainly ran at speeds suited to locos with three cylinders and big wheels.