Returning a Bulleid Merchant Navy to as built condition

Yes, im with you on that, what makes it or breaks it for me is the lovely shaped fairing from the bottom edge of the buffer beam, back over the cylinders... which because of its no doubt unhelpful positition seams to have never been put on the wc/bb's and pretty much gone by by 1948... http://www.bulleidlocos.org.uk/images/bulleid/scn/cp_w4carou.gif

 

things like the shape of the cladding are not really important, what is , is how much of an merchant could be used and would it be a better project to build new, that way you could re design componants to make better use of modern methods and componants, like roller bearings on driving axles for reduced maintainace a better design of middle cylinder and lubrication feeds better access to middle motion , and modify the chain driven valve gear with adjusters to take up slack in the chains removing the problems that fitters hate on un rebuilds

 

I'm not sure how you can have a chain driven gear AND better access. The whole idea of the chain driven gear is that it's mechanically lubricated and sealed, so doesn't need any access. And of course it's all the motion - 3 sets - in there, not just the middle motion. So it's ideal for the modern railway as you've only the outside rods to oil round. I agree that chain tension adjusters would be advantageous - if chain wear is a real problem with preserved mileages.

 

what i meant was that the oil bath could be redesigned to include access points that would make it easier for the fitters when they need to gain entry to the motion to do maintainance

 

Ok Martin - I understand now. Iain

 

Cant disagree with any of your points save one; sometimes like it or not the only restoration solution is to rebuild some or all lost components using the skills and methods available today, and no point in rebuilding if you dont make a better job with the hindsight available to us. Ok if it was only the 'Cladding' we were after it would be better to build Duke of Gloucester #2 with some Boxpok wheels and the Caprotti driving off the driving axle and then just clad it up. I find your comment on this a little dismissive, the appearance of these Locos was as distinctive and intriguing as their mechanics , and the finer points of this details are as important as any other part of the package - without them your argument might as well be 'Leave it in the rebuit form as its less trouble'

 

I've never had an issue when I've needed to get into the sump on a West Country 'as designed'. Then again it does help being a 6' tall racing snake!

 

But doesn't this rather nullify the whole idea of recreating an unrebuilt, however it is done? If you start to modify the design, to make maintenance and life easier, then, extrapolating this, you end up with a rebuilt, because that was one of the major reasons for rebuilding. If you want to fit roller bearings, it is far more logical to 'modernise' a rebuilt and see how much improvement 21st century knowledge can make. In recreating an original Merchant Navy, the only excuse for modern materials, etc, is where the recreation of the original is not possible. i.e. non-asbestos seals, safety glass, etc.

 

Wouldnt looking at doing the 5 AT be better rathr than messing about with what was tried and tested?

 

On what grounds?

To an extent an original Merchant Navy is just as different a project as the 5AT, only potentially more likely to gain support and assistance given the fact that it is a 'replica' rather than a new, less traditional design.

While I will admit I like the idea of the 5AT and any development of the potential of steam in this country, bear in mind that the vast number of railway enthusiasts are conservative (small c!) in their approach, and in general appear to be less inclined to support something that could never have run to their local station of Bumpkin-on-Sea. At least with tuning up a rebuilt Merchant (!) significant parts will already be in existence, and there is a commonality of part and design with a large number of existing locos.

 

But won't fitting a adjuster affect the timing of the valve gear?

 

Im moved to ask why do this, BR spent considerable amounts of money converting them to how they are now, if you want to see an un-converted loco theres plenty of BB and WC's around.

 

My answer to this is that we will then have a mainline registered class 8 (literally) unrebuilt Bulleid that can haul longer and heavier trains than 34067, thus adding to the viability of railtours. The rebuilts, as much as they are handsome and were historically more reliable, don't quite have the same 'magic' as the originals with their air-smoothed casing. But as with all things, there's a high up-front cost to it.

 

Depending on who you speak to, some will say that the rebuilds couldn't hold a candle to the originals, so this extra performance may be welcome on a mainline loco. Also, an original MN will fill a gap in preserved SR express passenger power, we've got 30120, 737, 30777, 850, plenty of light pacifics (in both states) and 10 rebuilt MNs.

 

How much more costly would it be to restore a Barry wreck of a rebuild or back convert one to an original? I'll hazard a guess that although the second option would cost more it wouldn't be hugely more expensive. I suspect an original would be hugely popular on rail tours foe a while at least and therefore recoup the costs somewhat quicker than another rebuilt would.

 

Agreed, it would have a unique selling point (USP), more power and flexability etc, gosh I wouldn't evern mind if they painted it in that horrible yellow-green... Personally the early BR Blue or even a like the experimental livery of dark blue with red lining of 35024 East Asiatic Company in 1948/9

 

I quite liked this livery, although I believe BR high command frowned upon it. I have read in Locomotives in Detail: Bulleid Merchant Navy class that the BR crest was painted on by hand, only for it to be painted over in the 'proper' blue livery with black and white lining and replaced with a transfer.

 

I think that everyone is looking at this the wrong way, can i ask this, If a plan was put together to un- rebuild an MN, and it used the usable bits of an un restored MN , would that engine had got restored in the first place? given that you would be looking at just having a set of frames, boiler and wheels, so either restored as an rebuilt, or an unrebuilt, you would still need a lot of parts to be made so would the end cost be any greater? and the end result which would have the most appeal on the main line and on preserved railways

 

The almost continuous prescence of one debate or other concerning Bulleids pacifics is testament to the interest in these enigmatic machines

1)As old chap says an as Built has A unigue selling point, it would be the only one( and what a one, come on now Duchess ? , A4 ? this is the real deal)
2) i think everyone would like to see another one of these fine engines put back to together in whatever condition but point one suggests
that the pre rebuild condition would be a popular choice that would attract funding.
3) Having an example of each allows the next generation to appreciate the flamboyant Bulleid 4 design and the more pragmatic rebuild.

The Unrebuilt bb/wc'S benefit from the kind of TLC that an undermanned/ underresourced MPD could ill afford and have been shown to work well and reliably under Modern 'one trip' conditions end of story.
Had the MN'S Not all been rebuilt and none of the rebuilt examples survived i think some would be making the case strongly to create a rebuilt
and others would be saying Why, they are ugly heavy, underpowered, not a patch on the originals might as well do another Brit etc... and so it goes on.

Fortunately we are in a position to have one (or two) of either.

Unfortunately, what renders this debate a lot of hot air is that the original thread question remains un answered;
unless ive missed it no one representing the owners of these Hulks has stuck their hand up and said.
"ID LIKE MINE TO BE RESTORED TO THIS CONDITION, WHO WILL SUPPORT ME AND HOW MUCH CAN YOU GIVE."
or "IF I BUY ONE TO BE RESTORED TO THIS CONDITION, WHO WILL SUPPORT ME AND HOW MUCH CAN YOU GIVE."
and until that happens ...

 

Sorry everybody for shouting and probably killing off this enjoyable thread with a bit of miserable realism.