Steam hauled tours and the fire risk.

I'm not quite sure why we have got a debate on window hanging on a thread which is supposed to be about fire risk but we do have a common issue here, and that is whether we like it or not, I do not believe that the tours we travel on are in most cases organised for the benefit of enthusiasts. In particular I feel that companies like Steam Dreams are more geared to providing a good day out to an interesting destination with maybe dining included. That is not to say that they don't value the enthusiast trade at all but we have to accept that it is the First/Dining passengers who make these trips pay, not us Standard Class types, and yet we are probably those who complain loudest when things do not go according to plan. I doubt that many of the First/Dining passengers care too much about whether there is a diesel on the train or not so long as it goes and they get their day out. For that reason to say "cancel the train" when there is a fire risk makes no commercial sense at all.

I think I read somewhere that Steam Dreams were considering running trains that were dining only - which reinforces my point that this is where they make their money. I would also love to see trains that are Standard Class only for the enthusiasts among us, but I can't see how you could make these pay.

 

Spamcans conclusion that it is not about annoying diners is quite right, its about having the right ticket for the right coach and although loathe to disagree with Spamcan I fully support that principle. One of the reasons I travel Premier Class is that you can usually leave your seat for ten minutes or so and find a free droplight. I have had that denied in the past by enthusiasts who have bagged windows for the duration with standard class tickets in premier class and the idea of asking them to move for five minutes at the bottom of Hemerdon is just not worth the hassle.
Its a myth that enthusiasts are few and far between in premier class. And to say diners would not wish to look out of the window when they are tucking into dinner........no slice of roast beef would stop me and others from savouring the last few miles over Shap from the nearest droplight if its available. There is also plenty of time to take in the sound and smells between soup and coffee....its not like serving fish and chips!

 

This is a bit worrying for tommorrows trip and the one on Friday passing through Dorset:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/10478407.stm The line after Wareham and onto the Swanage branch passes through similar heathland.

 

Hasn't TYS fitted 5043 with improved spark arresting gear? Has this been evaluated and could it (and variants) be certified for other locos to reduce fire risk by enough to avoid some fire risk bans?

Incidentally, its not just a problem on the mainline http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/10472248.stm
(Not yet confirmed if the PDSR loco started it or not though)

 

There's a bit of rain forecast down here for next week, not huge amounts but maybe enough to keep the tours running.

 

Hey, I serve fish and chips..........
Couldn't agree with you more regarding standard class pax hogging the drop lights in first class but a compromise is always available.
On the Jacobite last year all of the first class tickets had gone so "cattle class" it was. Wanted to record the thrash up Beasdale Bank amongst other things so I asked the steward if it would be OK to go up front in the leading vestibule on the outward leg. He said it would be fine as long as nobody in first class complained. Nobody did and when anyone asked if they could look or film out of the window, I gave way immediately. Even gave one lady the nod when we were approaching Glenfinnan so she could get a video of the train crossing it. So at the end of the day everyone was happy, I'd got my sound of Beasdale Bank and the first class passengers had got their pics and videos when they wanted to.
I've booked dining in the past but it's a blooming expensive way of getting sound if dinner is served during the loud bits. Yes, I missed a complete sitting when 60009 did it's sprint down Whiteball back in the 90s.

 

Martin, I guess for a once off trip I'd just take a chance of getting 100% steam. And either not go on it and lose the money, or just twiddle my thumbs all day, and look bored if I did go on a train with box doing most of the work: as could happen on July 9th! LOL! Unless of course there were any pretty, unattached Bavarian Serving Wenches to chase up and down the train all day! (shock!).

But if there were a number of trips I really wanted to go on, I think I would pay a bit more to be sure of getting a full refund if I turned up for steam trips and found a steam loco joined by a working diesel at the times of the year when that could happen: ie the fire risk season. Reading the Steam Dreams web site I am sure I saw that they are considering charging an extra £10 to guarantee a place in one direction in the first passenger coach: so the idea of a supplement for a special service would not be new.

A tour promoter Introducing a fire risk premium wouldn't need a formal insurance scheme. It would be (another!), commercial balancing act for a promoter to keep a simple memorandum account as to how many people wanted/paid for that security when booking, and how often they paid out on it. Adjusting the supplement from time to time on the basis of the net cost/benefit to themselves. Believe me you do not want to start introducing a formal insurance scheme at that level. And I do have a great deal of experience of that within the railway environment: one of my first jobs that set up my railway finance career was introducing the first external insurance cover the BRB ever had!

Memo accounts are very easy to operate, virtually back of the envelope stuff for anyone who can add up.

Where it might fall down though, is in the number of people who actually want to have a full refund should a box turn up. For even a simple memo account system to work you've got to have a reasonable number of people participating. And if it's only a dozen or so, the whole idea collapses.

For me, my current solution is to stop booking on trips until the fire risk season ends. That is the simplest solution of all. And if there are only a few hardened 100% steam people like me around, (and I am beginning to suspect that may be the case), the impact on tour promoters etc will be so small as to make any alternative scheme a complete waste of time!

There you go. I've waffled on long enough to almost talk myself out of the idea!

 

Where is here please?

The narrowing band of rain expected to give the odd shower here in Mid Kent didn't turn up. It's very hot, very dry and a strong and very warm breeze is blowing: just about the worst possible conditions for starting and spreading grass and heath fires. IMHO.

 

We're lucky that steam is allowed to run even with a diesel.

Germany had a blanket steam ban 2 years ago during the summer, only oil fired steam was allowed to run.

This drought has even expanded to Poland and Wolsztyn before now too.

Maybe we should consider some oil fired locomotives here in the UK, with a smattering of "show" coal on the tender I doubt anyone would know the difference apart from those hanging from the window.. who would find their goggles smearing up.. but no splinters in the eye and a dry taste in their throat.

 

Hoping to go on the Shakespeare Express this Sunday spoke to vintage trains today and they said that this train will be steam hauled by 5043 this Sunday. This has to be the best value mainline steam 2 hours of steam haulage for 20.00 cheaper if pre booked.

The dining option has stopped me going on most mainline trips as usually you can never get near the loco. Much prefer to go on pres lines where i can usually get the front window. not as fast as the mainline i know but a unrebuilt bulleid pulling out of Swanage is very impressive.

 

I went on a Snow Hill-Didcot Vintage trains trip back in April 1999, we had a great run down to Didcot and back to Shrub Hill when Network Rail decided 4965 needed assistance up Old Hill Bank. Everybody thought the 37 was going to be put on the back but not Network Rail................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kzQyHYOVmw

As for standing by a window, we had hassle on another Vintage Trains trip, this time with 6024, and have never travelled with them since and will not in the future.

 

To be honest...


Steam being shoved by a diesel is no different to being a diesel railtour.

The only people this serves is the operators and the photographers...
Operators get to keep the money and hide behind the excuse
Photographers will find the right angle (or may not care) to hide the diesel.

It's the passengers I feel sorry for.

It's a bit like ordering a hot 5 star meal in a restaurant but having it served cold... they still served it.. would you be happy ?


I think it's better to cancel it and give a refund.

fyi Even in South Africa they canceled steam due to a water shortage... but at least they hung up a sign saying it's diesel in advance so you can make your own choice.

 

Well maybe one level we could agree at..

if you arranged a hot date with a georgous blonde after waiting months she showed up with her ugly brother for protection...
meanwhile everyone else is taking pictures of you saying "how unlucky is that dude".

how would you feel and would you do it twice ?

How different is that to a railtour ?

 

Maybe Steam Dreams know their market better than we do. And decided that the majority of passengers would accept a box behind 5029.

A couple of things will be of interest now. Firstly, how bookings go for the next few trips if the fire risk problems continue. Maybe not the next trip or so, but ones where bookings haven't yet peaked. If those trips keep filling up as word spreads that a box will very likely be behind the steam loco doing most of the work, (and I think the promoters should make mention of it on their web sites etc if it is a strong possibility), then we just gotta take note. That will shut a few of us up, myself included!

And secondly, what response is given if anyone here was on the recent trip, genuinely had their day spoiled by the box, and is quite assertive in asking for a full refund.

 

Here in Sahara Reading we were forecast a bit of rain but only had a few spots of drizzle which lasted about 2 minutes. Fireball in the sky now out again, humid warm temperatures & fairly strong wind. Outside is like standing in a large hair dryer. All lawns/grass like a mass of brown straw. Earth like concrete to dig. TV news says farmers are struggling to feed cattle as the fields are parched. They are having to use their stored winter feed. Also say this will have an effect on supermarket prices. Also on the news it is stated that it has been the driest 6 months, Jan-June, for 80 years. Global warming at its best, how long have various governments talked about it?

 

Look at this, diesel behind 30777 on down trip, says diesel at rear from Southampton on return. bet this will change.
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t10/t0703b.htm

 

Quote from Steam Dreams website.
The historic carriages, the sound of the engine’s whistle and the smoke drifting past the window evoke memories of a bygone age of the steam train. We look forward to you joining us on a wonderful journey through glorious countryside to one of England's magnificent Cities or coastal towns.