60163 Tornado temporarily withdrawn.

My CV - whole working life in engineering. Built several boilers for 3-1/2" and 5" gauge locos. Been active with (full size) steam road vehicles since 1962 including overhauling Sentinel waggon boilers with working pressures up to 275 psi. Currently have here a Sentinel boiler and its fittings to being repaired/reconditioned plus replacement stop valve chest (regulator assembly) machined from fresh casting. Also involved with a Sentinel loco (again 275 psi) and a 3-drum Yarrow type boiler (working pressure 335 psi, original test pressure 560 psi) including reconditioning fittings plus manufacturing new clack valves. Does that constitute experience?

From an engineering point of view if something fails at an early date it can be written off as 'one of those things'. If its replacement or others similar adjacent fail then that is a cause for concern - which is my view of the situation the A1SLT is facing at the moment.

It has been stated that there is no problem with the stay material. That leaves either a design flaw or bad workmanship. With no reports of the stay welding giving out, this latter can be eliminated. That just leaves a design flaw. There is no reason to believe that the A1SLT people are doing other than gently raising steam and doing the same in the cooling down process. However, if steam was raised quickly as often happened in BR steam days (let alone the doing of some of the practices as recorded in the USA by E. S. Cox in his writings), it is reasonable to believe that these sort of problems would have shown up much sooner.

In case anyone wants to find out more on firebox stays giving out (granted, in this case referring to threaded ones, of which the coarse pitch of the thread was eventually found to be the problem) read Chapter 9 of D. W. Harvey's book 'Bill Harvey's 60 Years In Steam' about the US-built S160 2-8-0s.

My gut feeling is that now, rather than just replacing stays, deep thinking will be involved and some modification, like more flexible stays being installed, will have to be done. Whether this is done in the UK or Germany, remains to be seen.

Re Mike30A's final sentence, please remember that there are such things nowadays as 'spin' and a 'positive outlook'.

 

Meiningen are building one for 3801. http://www.3801.com.au/

This is reputedly the largest boiler constructed by Meiningen.

 

Many thanks eightpot -- appreciate the time you have taken to post this. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens with 60163, but let's all hope there isn't a serious underlying problem.

 

I believe the PM for this project is also the same PM for Tornado's boiler, and a "lifer" at Meiningen.
I saw some pictures of this boiler and some of it's redesign work just today actually.

Here's a quote regarding this..

"Of particular note are features such as the “gutter” type of foundation ring, aimed at improving washouts; moving the join between foundation ring and inner and outer fireboxes away from the base of the ring; and the smokebox tubeplate being welded into a machined angle ring to facilitate easy changing of either component due to wastage if ever required."

 

So, was this a problem found with the original Peppercorn A1's?

 

It seems that Tornado is taking longer to repair than originally thought and as a result she will not now be appearing at the Bluebell Railway.

 

Is this fact or speculation? If the former could you state the source please - thanks

 

Can't see anything new on either the A1 website or the Bluebell's

Steven

 

Confirmed on the new front of house website:

http://www.bluebell-railway.com/event/tornado-specials/

Bitterly disappointing, but I am certain that we will still put on a fantastic show for the 50th Anniversary.

I wish the A1SLT all the best with the repairs and hope that it returns to traffic soon. Hopefully there might be a chance for 60163 to make it down to Bluebell metals later in the year or possibly next year.

Regards,

Dan

 

This is a fact. I was informed of this development by the A1SLT late today and if you look at http://www.bluebell-railway.com/event/50th-anniversary-celebrations/ you will see that the page now states that only Furness no. 20 and Blue Circle are attending the gala. The loco roster at http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/loco_roster.html has yet to be updated.

 

Thanks for that .

 

Thanks for the news, really gutted to hear Tornado will not make Bluebell50, hopefully at some point in the future we'll be able to get her down here for another go.

 

While not wishing to enter the realms of wild speculation, there does seem to be a greater problem here than first thought.

Bearing in mind the amounts of money donated by covenanter's and sponsors I think it is time for a full release of the facts as known to date and what the ongoing investigation is looking at and for with a synopsis of the plans to rectify.

Perhaps German engineering is not as good as some people make out?

 

There is an update on the A1SLT website indicating a continued problem with boiler stays.

http://www.a1steam.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=123

 

Yeah lets hope so. I'll still go to the 50th Gala but was really looking forward to seeing Tornado for the 3rd time. And I've still not got any pictures of the front of the loco yet. 2 videos but not pictures. Sadly I don't think it will be this year unless its between November 21st (day after the Christmas Coronation) and December 10th but any time soon and I'll be happy. Lets hope that Tornado can be repaired very soon and be enjoyed on the mainline and preserved railways once again.

 

As a long standing covenantor i have every trust in the methods of manufacture and operation of Tornado.

Its up to the parties that be to rectify the situation to everybodys satisfaction, and then make us aware of what the deep seated problem has been, and how they in conjuction with the boilers manufacturers have resolved it.

To make idle comments about german engineering is out of order, the loco would not have been ready nearly 2 years ago, had it not been for their efforts and prompt manufacture.

And before anybody says it could have been manufactured in the UK, the price and delivery timescale were nowhere near what the trust paid for the boiler, and it arrived on time, and to budget.

Look at any major boiler work on any loco, and i bet the price quoted and price paid bear no relation.

As i said before idle comments about manufacturing, and "wanting" to know information that is confidential are what lets forums down across the world.

 

Sorry, but as a covenanter I feel that the exact state of play should now be addressed, Tornado is not private property like many locos and the people who have paid towards it are due an explanation for what is now turning into a serious problem, letting down customers and passengers alike, and affecting the business plan to repay loans.

With regard to German engineering, over the past few years Mercedes Benz, BMW and VW-Audi have gone from the top of the reliability surveys to near the bottom. In addition when the B12's boiler returned from it's overhaul in Germany I seem to remember there being issues with regard to the quality of workmanship.

 

Just to add a side issue here, but now the loco has been stopped would it not be a reasonable idea to do the repaint into Brunswick green now rather than stopping it again next year to do the job, thus killing two birds with one stone.

 

I know that the B12's tender returned with L E N R on the tender! Don't know about the boiler problems though. It must be gutting news for the Bluebell losing the big name attraction. Hope she can visit them in the future.