Tornado

Sorry to dig up an old thread, information about 60163's visit to the ELR is now available as below:

The ELR website has now been updated with information added about the gala so here goes...

Alongside 60163 and 5690 at the gala both 45337 and 44871 will star "plus other locos". During Tornado's visit 'fantastic Tornado prizes can be won'. Alongside this there will be a photography competition. Also confirmed that Tornado will NOT be in service on the 25th or 29th. A steam gala timetable will operate on the 23rd-24th, green timetable during the midweek runs and blue timetable on the 30th-31st. Special fares apply for the steam gala weekend. This is your chance to come close with the famous A1 Tornado for one week only on the ELR!
More information available here: http://east-lancs-rly.co.uk/?p=tornado&m=40

 

Reading Railway mag today there is an article regarding LNER P2. The A1 group is considering building an original condition type and the Doncaster P2 trust are considering building a streamlined version. Which version would be prefer to see running.

 

Who are the Doncaster P2 Trust? Website etc? By "streamlined" do you mean the ones with the A4 style front end?

 

The photo in RM shows a streamlined A4 style front end. Could confuses the average man in the street with a A4. Far better to build the original style loco.

 

I know who I think are more likely to succeed in building whichever type they prefer!

 

I couldn't possibly comment!

 

Surely if someone wants to see a Later streamlined P2 the best thing they can do is get behind the A1SLT who have demonstrated and ability to carry this kind of thing through and, if they can raise the money, pay to have two of everything done (Except the smoke box and cladding).
Thers only room for 2 Mikados out there and only one of them is a Gresley.

 

Original condition as 2001 Cock O' The North was built like. One hell of a beautiful engine that.

 

Having a P2 in either form will be great (as long as it's actually built!) but having both would be even better! I'm not suggesting the idea of building 2 P2s (I think 1 will be quite enough for us all), but not why build it to the orginal design and then build the A4 styled nose front as an entirely different piece. One of the world's largest attach-on pieces! Afterall A1ST has always desired displaying Tornado in all liverys/conditions the original A1s had, so it would be safe to assume that they would want to do the same thing with the P2.

 

It isn't quite that smple with a P2 - the two ealier examples had different valve gear to the later streamlined front ones. Persnally, I suspect neither will get built as the photographers will not contribute as neither could legitimately be painted anything but LNER green! Somehow, I can't see David Wilcock issuing a rallying call to get behind it.

 

In what way did the "photographers" contribute to Tornado's construction exactly? It was the covenantors, bond purchases and sponsors who came up with most of the cash etc. Sure some of these are also photographers, but I doubt they contributed solely because they could then take photo's of her. After all, her normal livery is, and will be, apple green.

Judging by the enthusiasm at today's 20th Covenantor's meeting, there'll be little difficulty in raising the money from the same sources as for Tornado, assuming the project is deemed feasible.

 

I suspect that there are quite a lot of photographers who became covenanters in the belief that 60163 would send most of its life in BR green, rather than apple green - it is the livery the original engines carried for most of their working lives, so not an unreasonable assumption. I think it is a fair bet that there are some that are disgruntled because the livery for them is more important than the existence of the engine. You've only to look back on the thread about 48624 to see the proof of that!

 

Well they can't be that disgruntled as covenator numbers are still increasing since the loco entered service. It's only paint, and for how much longer will there be people who actually remember them in service - I certainly don't, and IMHO she looks far better in apple green. But then I quite like the red 8F too, so I must need certifying.

 

I notice that the A1SLT trust hasn't committed itself to actually building a P2 yet and they are (very sensibly IMHO) doing some research on the forces an 8 coupled loco would have on the track/ implications of the long wheelbase which caused problems in LNER days ('no point building it if it can't go mainline').

I wish them every success if they decide to go ahead but I think they might be better concentrating their resources on keeping Tornado in traffic. If the A1SLT really would like a second loco to look after, what would be the chances of them partnering NELPG to get 'Blue Peter' back into traffic?

 

I simply don't think that's true, based on the other covenators I know, and those covenators who are sadly no longer with us. My late grandfather signed up as a covenator because he wanted to see a Peppercorn A1 - granted, his preference was Express Passenger Blue, his favourite colour, but just to see that particular class of locomotive again was why he signed up, and I don't doubt that the rest of the A1 trust covenators signed up for the same reason. I would like to know on what basis you make that assumption?

Looking back through my covenators file, there's nothing that's ever been suggested that Tornado would stay in one livery, or indeed have a main livery at all. Apple Green has logically become the "norm" because that is what she's gone into first, and it is - like it or not - the most marketable of the British Railway liveries, when trying to cater for the general public - it being the brightest in shade.

As for "photographers contributing to Tornado's build" - I guarantee you it'll be a small percentage of people who will have done so. The majority of the money going into Tornado's build were covenators, sponsors and various other means and ways of raising the money. The bond scheme, for example, attracted some covenators who were already paying money into the machine. Tornado was built by people who wanted to see a Peppercorn A1 - by no means was there anything which said "to build a Brunswick Green Peppercorn A1".

I was under the impression that Tornado is being repainted into Brunswick green at the end of the year, to satisfy the wishes of one of the Trust/Covenators, who is seriously ill. Originally it was planned to be blue next (as far as I know, my knowledge on what goes on between the trustees being a bare minimum, if anything, as it should be), but this particular repaint has been brought forward regardless. In any event, the paintwork would need renewing this year.

As for what David Wilcock thinks - or that other David, for that matter - who cares? It's not their locomotive, nor (as far as I am aware) have either had any hand, either monetarily or in terms of interest, in Tornado's building. The photographers, frankly, are a tiny portion of those any mainline locomotive caters to in any event. They don't, for the most part, pay any money towards trusts/locomotive groups when photographing these engines on the mainline, after all. So they are an irrelevance in my book, to the building of a Gresley P2. It'll be covenators, sponsors and other means of raising money, should the A1 Trust decide, after clear investigation into its feasibility, that'll pay for the building of a P2, and nothing else.

 

I for one saw all the Peppercorn A1s in service and can remember all the liveries they carried from 1948 onwards. Just wait until they paint 60163 in early 1950s BR Blue, then I think a lot of folk may change their views on their favourite livery for an A1. OK I am in a minority and I accept that, but you asked how long will people like me be around. Well, the A1s finished in 1965 and people who were say 15 then should certainly be able to remember A1s in service. Such folk will be aged about 60 now and on present trends in life expectancy some of them (though not me!) will still be around in 30 years time and possibly for longer. So there's an answer to your question and after we've all gone then the Brunswick Green Brigade will have the field to themselves. What a boring world that will be.
.

 

Fear not 50002, im sure it will only be a year or two until 60163 goes blue, but i suspect tht it wont be for long. Just as it should go Br Brunswick it Should go Blue, think of the repeat sales of models and stuff...

The Legend of the big Apple green Express Loco is more firmly imprinted on the minds of those who never saw a steam engine in BR service and who will be around longer than the BRunswick green Lobby. As Blue peter, Green Arrow and Flying Scotsman in their turn have been, Tornado is the current Incarnation of that Legend.

As for the P2 here is your Mantra: If it can be done, then it should be and if enough people think that way it will be.

I've done as much homework on this as any in denial loco anorak can do and come to the same conclusions as others better qualified than myself.

1) It ran badly on a Nasty route... When engines of other classes with the same pony truck ran badly anyway the problem was looked at and solved ( so no Gresley swing link) As it was for the V2 so shall it be for the P2
2) the trailing truck wasn't a cracking ride either, so as it was altered for the A4 so shall it be for the P2 (AND 60163 I beleive)
3)The boiler/firebox/was a try out, remember no one in this country had built anything this big or with new fangled French technology on before, by loco no 6 they had it right enough: as it was for the A2 and A1 (pep) so shall it be for the P2
4) A 250 psi Boiler dont need the 21 inch cylinders neatly solving the loading guage problem, As it was for the A1/ A2 so shall it be for P2

5)It is a P2, NOT A 2-8-2 A4 and therefore shall not look like one... So it was for the unmistakeable P2 Shall it be for this unmistakable P2 (The exception That proves the Rule)
and for the progressionists....
6)The best available valve gear for efficient high speed running conveniently looks a bit like the original lentz gear on 2001 As it is for 71000 ....er ok then, so shall it be for the P2... although through a cavernous double kylchap drifting smoke will be a problem when not 'working', but given the AISLT'S Aeronautical connections maybe something can be sorted behind the Cowl... failing that the trusts aptitude with electronic wizardry suggests twin CCTV Cameras disguised as lights projecting a heads up display onto the spectacle glasses.... problem solved.

Princess Coronations ?

 

I'll be happy to be proved wrong, but it will be interesting to see what the response is when a. 60163 goes into Brunswick green and b. it is subsequently repainted!

I quite agree that the photographers are an overrated bunch, but I would still imagine that there are a fair few of them in the ranks of the covenanters.


PS, although Blue Peter is currently in apple green, it (sadly) never ran in those colours in its time with NELPG.

 

Just received an email from a Yahoo group by someone who was at the covenantors/other donors day at Barrow Hill and as well as Tornado going Brunswick early 2011, she'll be available to WCRC.