Tornado

Agreed , only one P2 needs to be built and it should be in original form ( A1ST choice ) . If someone wants to build another Gresley express loco then their is always a B17 . I hope the A1ST feasibility study has a positive outcome .

 

In fairness to my own supported trust - the A1 Trust - and the Mikado Society (now the Doncastor P2 Trust) have been looking at this indepently of each other. It is a free country, after all. I too am wary of two locomotives of the same class being built, but you can't say to one or the other group "you're not allowed to build it".

 

Without wishing to ruffle any feathers, how about a joint venture ie the A1-P2 society project. I realise this would involve two established groups working close together and the subsequent readdessing of the management structure but as the P2 socs is moe advanced but the A1 group has more prestige and most importantly funding clout (including this little green thing running around earning)? An idea maybe?

m0rris

 

is there a way that the P2 could be built that would be capable of running in either streamlined condition or unstreamlined that way if certain bits were designed into the build so that sometime during its running carreer, when say it becomes due for an intermediate overhaul at say 5 years it could come out in streamlined guise that way, everyone would be happy, the A1 trust and the P2 society could pool experience and fund raising

 

Dear Martin,

in my opinion it is an excellent proposal !

 

As has been said previously, one version or the other would be highly inaccurate due to the totally different outside valve gear.

 

but you could argue that it would be highly inaccurate anyway, just like Tornado is highly inaccurate.

 

Well then the best solution could be the building of 2002 Earl Marischal replica with Walschaerts valve gear !

 

Precisely my thoughts!

Next in series, with improvements which were planned for the original a1s, plus a few necessary modern improvements, which ALL locomotives destined for the mainline require (cutting down to 13ft dead in height above rails being one).

 

Quite right, afterall the A1SLT haven't said yet which valve gear they would use. As for the news of another group thinking of building a P2 I have no objections to their plan (the thought of the sight of TWO P2s side by side in their different forms is very tempting...).

But even I (who's a big steam dreamer) won't deny that their could be issues... Firstly there's the big issue of funding, if the A1SLT and this other group do go on to build their own P2s it could affect the funding for one or worse both of them. Secondly (and I think the worse case sanario) the A1SLT may decide that because of this other group (the Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust) they may decide not to build a P2, and that in my opinion would be a disaster Because, no offence to the Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust but... I would really like the A1SLT to build a P2 because afterall you can't overlook their experience with a new build project (Tornado certainly shows that) and of course their finacial skills, so I certainly would like to see them build a P2.

There is somthing else that bothers me though... Where on earth did this Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust come from, and their a bit late aren't they since I'm sure the A1SLT anounced they were thinking of building a P2 first...

 

The Mikado society (who have been around a good ten years, quietly getting the money together for their project - announced first, about ten years ago in fact!) will get their frames done first, but it'll shorten the time to build and the costs significantly if the two groups order the same parts together at the same time - that much has been said by both of the project leaders. Lead times to manufacture and all that.

This is perhaps an extreme example of a batch of new build locomotives to the same design being made (as should have been really with the 3MT project), only here the end results will be quite significantly different, while based on the same basic frames.

You choose your group, and who you want to send money to. I think there's room for two P2s certainly, and the press coverage for both could be mutually beneficial.

In fact, the "two groups ordering as one" approach IS mutually beneficial for all sides. I am not saying bring the two groups together, but the speed with which designs and manufacturing of components could be achieved, by pooling their resources for particular components would help. I am thinking in terms of casting the driving wheels/cylinder blocks/etc etc, but learning towards items that are best ordered in larger quantities to fully realize their value (tubes, etc).

My money will go to the A1 Trust, as a covenator to Tornado, so shall I be to the new P2, but I see no harm in a donation to the Mikado society as well. Working together would bring mutually beneficial results for everyone.

In any event - it will be an interesting few years to come!

 

Has anyone tracked down Tornado 21st Century Steam book yet. It was supposed to be out Friday just gone but I've not seen it in Brighton or Haywards Heath.

 

Got mine at the A1 Covenantors meeting last weekend - so it definitely exists!

 

Ah right thanks must just be my local shops then. Bluebell may be my best chance on Saturday.

 

Should the A1 trust consider leaving the new P2 build to the Doncaster P2 Trust and concentrating on building another boiler for tornado which is on their wish list.

 

That dosen't sound like something the A1SLT would do considering the way they are and their way of thinking. I can imagine it now, A1SLT the board getting together to hear the future plan proposals, one guy stands up and says "right ladies and gentlemen, I've put much thought into this and I think I've come up with a brilliant plan! I propose we build a another boiler for Tornado!!! what do you think?! There's a long pause before another man at other end of the table stand up and says "That's it... That's your proposal!!! We've spent 19 years, raised 3 million pounds, gained an incredible amount of Engineering Knowledge and skills... And while doing all of this built a brand new steam locomotive the size of Mallard, and after all of that you propose we just build a SPARE BOILER?!!!" That's how I imagine the response from the A1SLT and indeed conventors would be (abeit perhaps a little over-exaggerated...).

Also while I'm sure your right about the spare boiler being on their wish list, the boiler on Tornado was only built about 4 years ago so I don't think it's something they'll want or need anytime soon...

 

I think theres room for an as built form of Gresley A1 with coal rail tender.. rather than 2 P2s.
After all 4472 is really an A3 now ?

 

I really don't think it's up to anyone to tell the two groups what to do with the money their supporters give, if I'm honest...

Yes. Yes she is an A3 now. She is more of an A3 now than she has ever been throughout the last thirty years - given she now has a fully functioning A3 boiler to be fitted.

I'm flabbergasted at some of the views being expressed in this thread. The A1 trust, rightly, wants a challenge, and a P2 has been at the top of the trust's - and covenator base's - wishlists for some time. If they decide to go ahead, I will support them, as they have a proven track record in delivering a brand new steam locomotive. If both groups go ahead and build a P2 each, it could in fact be extremely good for the railtour market.

Whichever way you look at it, if they solve certain problems of the P2's wheelbase, you are left with an incredibly powerful machine with better tractive adhesion than any other steam locomotive on the mainline. I think a P2 locomotive would be perfect for the modern railway - it's what is required, after all - being able to pull more efficiently a 13 coach on the mainline. Two of them, producing powerful, reliable performances, could convince Network Rail further of the advantages of new build steam for the main line, opening up new opportunities for railtours, perhaps.

I see the building of two P2s as an inherently good thing - the engine on the front, it has been said, doesn't matter to joe public, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the engine on the front, that matches modern timings for trains, and matches modern speeds as a result, will matter, and I think the eight coupled wheelbase and free steaming 118a boiler design could be a clincher.

 

Personally i think that the preference for the choice of nose on this engine is not a good enough reason to build two of them at once What i do think is that the A1SLT's approach, ie finding out if it will 'work' and be allowed to run on the railway before cutting steel is the work the other team should have done already...

To say that the two versions are like 'chalk and cheese'(quote from the Beono) is a bit of an exaggeration. Other than looking like cock of the north and having different valve gear (probably) the A1SLT'S P2 will be closer under the skin to 'Wolf of badenoch' or a 'wolf of badenoch' that Peppercorn/Cook/Harrison had worked on to sort out the 'niggles'.
I cant believe that the Mikado soc. are foolhardy enough to build a P2 staight of the drawing board without doing the same kind of reappraisal that A1SLT and every Loco buff since 'Clay & Cliffe' have done.

If either party get this right we will have two (Eventually) extremely 'Puissant' Engines carrying the flag for steam on the mainline. The worry is that one or both fail through diluted resource. My money is already with the A1SLT, not only because i prefer the cock of the north shape, but because of their track record in Management, engineering, funding and engaging with the big railway.

I also think that the eight coupled wheelbase, 118a boiler and caprotti valvegear is potentially awesome

The A1 SLT Boiler #2 is i think a sensible step, and if P2 Isnt feasible then what could you do with it ? fit it to an A2 ? or more likely another A1...

A mikado design that will work was on the BR Drawing Board in 1951. Come on you know it makes sense...

Admin, there is an open P2 Thread, should the last half dozen P2 posts go there ?