GCR "pullman" train

Mk2s are "less historically significant"? Not sure about this. Each type of carriage is a development of what existed before, so they are all significant in some way.

"why not do it to a mk2 set, theres a lot of them about" - there are lots of Mk.1s about as well. So many at the GCR in fact that the Pullman-ised versions weren't needed for normal services and could be upgraded into a specialist dining train.

"a lot of enthusiasts have families and freinds, and will know people who arnt enthusiasts, who may ask the enthusiast wheres the best place to go" - yes, there may be a few of these, but I'm not sure how many family visitors rely on enthusiasts to recommend which railway to go to. To be honest, many families really aren't that fussy.

OK, the GCR "Pullmans" aren't authentic, but I doubt that the GCR management will lose much sleep over the enthusiasts or photographers who might not like them. There's always the galas and other operating days when the Pullmans aren't being used. At other times, the GCR will be bringing in new income from corporate customers who expect a higher level of comfort and service than bog-standard Mk.1s to entertain their business guests or their staff.

Richard

 

I apologise

I didnt mean to offend.
I was just saying that I didnt think they were authentic and it might alienate some people.
and that catering for non enthusiast parties could be problamatic if it goes too far that way,putting off enthusiasts, although the balance seems good now.

although I have to take issue with the comment earlier about asking me to put my hand in my pocket to donate towards vehicle restoration. its ok asking enthusiasts to donate when a project wants doing, well why not pass the bucket round at a corporate event of non enthusiasts?



I did say I think they look really nice, and I would like to travel in them, It actually doesnt bother me anymore when vehicles arnt restored in original colours etc, what Im saying there are people who can be put off.
like those people who wouldnt go and see the 8f because its painted red.

there was a time when I tried to take photos and try to get them to look exactly like it was taken in the 1960s but Ive grown away from that, realising other things, like weve gotta accept its not the 1960s anymore. and to enjoy vehicles and railways for what they are now, the fact theyre running and that people have put a lot of effort in to them.

Mike

 

I really dont see a problem. These carriages arent going to be used by ordinary enthusiasts or even casual visitors, and the people that do use them will be more interested in the overall experience than the colour scheme. If this is what Cromwell Tools want, then they can have it - when they arent being used for profitable corporate events which keep the railway going, then they'll be on a siding out of the way.

Lets be honest, you can visit most railways and find fictional, innapropriate or innacurate livieries and livery combinations - the GCR is hardly unusual.

Chris

 

Is the 'Pullman' set in use and how many times has it been used for corporate events? I wish the GCR well in this venture, and I don't mind at all the 'unauthentic' livery - there are many coaches on the mainline excursions which are in similar liveries, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Regards

 

The pullman coaches used by Vintage Trains are mark 1 pullmans and I believe WCRC have a few as well.

 

I wish the GCR well in their venture. As the Catering Manager of the Kent & East Sussex Railway, which introduced the 'Wealden Pullman' (an approved & registered name!) 36 years ago, we are very privileged to have two genuine 1926 Pullman Cars. We do also have a Mk1 in the set (RU 1955), although this is not used by the public.
The most important aspect as far as the customer is concerned is not necessarily related to the stock: it's the overall experience received. This is a product of the environment, ambiance, service, food, staff, loco, scenery etc etc. What is required is a performance, no different from the theatre. In fact I tell new staff that when they go through the door into the dining saloons, that they are going on stage! It clearly works for us as we are always sold out.
Going for corporate business in the current climate will be challenging, but get it right and your finance department will be delighted with the results!

 

The only "Mark 1 Pullmans" are the 1960 Metro Cammell Cars. Quite a significant proportion of the original limited build srvive, including all the 2nd Class Plaours - some with Vintage Trains, some with WCRC and I think 1 or two others (Mid-Hants and K&ESR?).

Of the First Class cars, Robin and Opal have been in use yesterday, today and about 145 other occasions on the NYMR in 2010. GCR did have a cpouple of stored Met Camm 1960 Pullmans for many years but I am not sure they are still there.

Steven

 

Car 349 was hired by us at the K&ESR for a number of years, but returned to its owner 5 years ago to go back mainline. They are very comfortable vehicles, easy to serve in and have good blown air heating (important at this time of year!), but are very much 60's styled with lots of formica in evidence. It was always well patronised when with us however and I was sorry to see it go.

 

OK, a few things.

Of the six vehicles in the GCR's "Pullman" set, only two (the FOs) had been in anything like regular use in recent years, and other than the paint and perhaps re-trimming I don't think they differ particularly from 'standard'.

The brake coach - a BG - had been festering at Swithland for some years since its former use as the 'Leicester North waiting room' ceased. I gather it's being temporarily used as a stop-gap wheelchair accessible coach because the converted one has been stopped for repair, though what they've done to enable its use for that I'm not sure, as I haven't looked inside it recently, but this probably explains why it keeps popping up in service trains. I daresay it could all be put back to 'authentic' fairly easily, although as it's a BG, if it was, nobody would get to see it!

The kitchen car 1525 has been back-converted from a derelict shell to a kitchen car, it's a vehicle I honestly never expected to see running again. I believe the interior has been altered a bit (no bar) though again I haven't been inside for a look. But I find it hard to believe people would rather it had been left in the siding to rot, which was the only other option open to it. We do have its sister vehicle 1526 is service if anyone wants to see what an authentic kitchen car looks like.

Finally the two bar cars - one was a TSO (of which we have many examples, and they're pretty boring vehicles...) and had its interior stripped out years ago, again this coach festered for a long time and was even offered for sale at one point - no takers - so it seems like the best thing that the GCR took the project by the scruff of the neck, finished the conversion and got the coach running. The other was an SK (again we have 'original' examples in traffic) which was bought from another railway especially for the purpose, and I gather that the conversion differs slightly in detail in the light of experience from the first.

So, you may have a legitimate argument that the TSO and SK 'could' have been put back to their as-built condition, you may even say that they 'should' although where you'd have got the interior bits from after they were thrown away years ago (the TSO - I don't know what the SK had in it when bought), I'm not sure. If these were particularly scarce vehicles I would have some sympathy with this view, but they're not.

As for the rust prevention layer, I don't particularly like the colour myself but it'll need replacing in 10 years or so anyway, so that debate can wait. But if they wanted to go back to authentic liveries next time around (say, if the sponsorship ended), at least there are now six carriages made of sound metal to put the paint onto. 1525 was previously in crimson & cream livery, but it didn't look particularly authentic with no doors or windows or floor or anything else inside it.

Finally, the GCR did indeed have two BR Mk.1 Pullman cars years ago, but both have since moved on.

Apologies that this is going to look like a bit of a rant. It wasn't meant to, it just sort of came out that way. ;-)

Phil

 

Phil,

Thanks for the info. Is the SK still a corridor coach or an open now? I only ask as compartments would be more difficult to serve up good quality nosh.

Richard

 

One of the Bluebell Pullmans (Fingall) has a 4 seat coupe separate to the main seating area - no problems serving last time I ate there and definitely the best seats for a private party of 4!

Tom

 

Virtually all "proper" Pullmans had a coupe compartment - even the 1960s Met-Camm first class examples had them.

 

The GCR do have a licence to use the Pullman branding and crests. In response to a previous post 3042 is covering for blood and custard MK1 3126 which is still at Rothley Carriage and Wagon works.

 

I'm not sure about the first class kitchen cars, but the first class parlour cars certainly had them.

 

The Met Camm 1st Class Pullmans had one coupe at the non-kitchen end of the kitchen cars and one at each end of the palours - much sought after by diners!

Steven