Socialising after a day of volunteering

Sorry John, just my home-spun Yorksher philosophy - promise not to do it again

 

The infamous incident! Sadly, this DID happen and DID cause embarrassment to the organisation concerned. Like many "off the cuff" comments, this one was taken to extremes by the Press and the railway concerned, caussing some distress on all sides.

So far as actual regs are concerned, Steve is right in quoting "group Standards" and certainly the larger Heritage lines use this as their own "Standards". HRA advice is to quote the TWA and to rely on railway management to enforce the correct "discipline" on crews [As noted, it's not just drivers covered by this!]. Whenever I was driving, I would ensure I had nothing to drink for a minimum of 8 hours before reporting for duty to ensure i was "OK".

 

Before the Transport and works Act, there was an offence known as 'Misconduct of A Railway Servant.' Section 17 of the Railway Regulation Act 1840 created an offence to be drunk on duty for any engine driver, waggon driver, guard, porter, servant, or other person employed by a railway company in conducting traffic upon the railway, or in repairing and maintaining the works of the said railway.

Of course you had to be drunk and the evidence for that usually came from the 'expert opinion' of a Constable. Hence the hackneyed phrase 'his eyes were glazed, his speech was slurred, his breath smelled strongly of intoxicating liquor and in my opinion he was drunk your worship !'

I personally know of one incident where this was used to arrest and prosecute the driver of the Leeds - Heysham boat train who was drunk enough to stop at a green colour light signal and fall asleep over the DMU drivers desk. He went to prison too.

 

Sorry but I am not being over the top. The level of alcohol is alot less than it is for driving on the roads....fact.
On the railways if you are even just a smidgen over the level you are sacked.....no questions ....sacked.

And the above also applies to preserved railways too.

 

So does anybody want to remind us what the NR standards translate to in practical terms - say is it still OK to consume up to 2 pints of 4.5% beer before 22.00 & then sign on at 06.00 the following day?

(given the typical average body mass of a typical heritage railway volunteer!!)

 

Steve is right. HRA recommends that railway managers comply with the requirments of the TWA, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/42/section/27, which is slightly less restrictive than Railway group Standards and in the main these are all that are required.

However, the larger railways do tend towards using Group Standards and of course NYMR, which actually operates on Network Rail metals to Whitby no doubt HAS to comply as part of their licence to operate there. It therefore makes sense for them to apply those standards throughout their railway operation rather than just for those operating to Whitby.

It is, as many have commented, also a matter of common sense and courtesy to our customers because the Guard is covered by TWA as are other staff. It cannot be particularly pleasant to ask a member of railway staff a question and then be surrounded by beer fumes when he or she answers!!

 

For the "big railway", this is quite true. There have been cases where railway clerical staff have been disciplined for drinking a half of beer during their lunch breaks, which of course many "ordinary" workers do as a matter of course. The railway is extremely strict when it comes to alcohol consumption [And drugs, too] and shows no "mercy" towards offenders.

On Heritage Railways, we have developed the same sort of culture as a matter of course and I believe its the right thing to do.

 

The safe option is to have none in your system when you sign on. If an incident occurs whilst you are on duty and you are found to be above the alcohol limit (even though you might not have caused or be at fault for the incident) the consequences are not worth thinking about...for you and the railway you work for....

 

I'm sorry but this is so symptomatic of the world we are brought up in today.

When I first joined BR I thought I had joined a training course for Alcoholics Anonymous - it really was that bad. In the end professional commercial negotiators who had absolutely no contact with the operational railway could not even have a single measure of G & T at topping out ceremonies, etc, without risking the sack; thereby becoming regarded as nannied nonentities by their fellow professionals from the private sector.

I am not condoning turning up for work unfit - but this religious zealotry is doing the world of business, leisure, and in our world of period atmosphere no good at all, as anyone with an ounce of individual character is squeezed out of the system.

Those who preach otherwise are welcome to their views.

It is possible to be sufficiently experienced to prioritise accurately, and meet the requirements of the various parts of the working or volunteering week, without becoming a complete party pooper. Its paraphrased as work hard and play hard

 

That is probably true TBF but that the way it is.
Unfortunatly it has taken alot of the socialbility out of the railways nowadays...

 

Just to step in on behalf of the KWVR as its public face.

The incident in question that started this was now 21 years ago, A LOT of things have changed since. (if you want to be really synical it was before i even existed, althought i do know of the lady in question)
As many have mentioned things have radically changed - new rules and new regs.

I myself have heard stories of the "old days" where a drop of brandy was more or less the norm in the messcan - obviously this does not happen now.
As someone who works on the "big railway" then any amount of alcohol is a sackable offence. (stop drinking 8 hours before shift allowing an hour for every unit to be absorbed). In terms of the KWVR, again very similar. Anyone found drinking on duty is immidiatly suspended and mediscreaned. Action taken there on after.

In terms of the origional question which I think has being taken slightly out of context, im sure most Railways have get togethers etc where a group or a few people go to the pub or the local for a few - nothing over the top, just a leasurely drink where folk can have a chat about happenings on the Railway

 

It does not. Read 60017's post as well as mine. Your attitude is typical of the "nanny state" attitude attempting to pervade every facet of life in this country. To take a set of rules, then "gold-plate" them, then persuade all and sundry that this is absolutely the only way to behave.

I have read and abide by my Railway's rules and they are not what you are trying to promote. I have been working on my Railway for 40 years and on the footplate for 28. You?

 

Hear, Hear. I refer you gentlemen to my previous posts.

 

I have sympathy for the "Nanny State" comments here, but at the end of the day, that isn't going to impress the judge when something goes seriously wrong.

I don't know what railway you work for, or its rule book. All I can say is that HRA recommends ALL member railways to abide by the TWA and if your railway's rules reflect this, then everything is fine and dandy.

As Kieran has said previously, there's nothing wrong with crews socialising in the evenings and indeed there's much to be said for it - keeping a social spirit alive is quite an important part of preservation. All that has to be done is show common sense and ensure you don't have any alcohol in your bloodstream when you're doing Safety Critical work!

Don't ever forget that, no matter how many years you have been driving for whichever preserved railway, when that awful incident happens [God forbid, but we all know these things happen] you may well be asked to provide blood/urine samples for analysis and if they show alcohol/drugs, you might have a problem.

 

Hello all,

as someone who is definitely not old school (at the age of 40!) I find this discussion rather odd. Do some people on here really say that it is acceptable if you have a certain level of alcohol in your blood when performing safety critical work such as mechanic, fireman, guard or driver or am I misinterpreting some comments?

Some of the longer standing volunteers at "my" preservation project, which is a tramway, not a railway, remember that it was quite usual to go to the pub for lunch breaks, have a meal and a pint of beer or two and then continue driving. Drinking alcohol while on duty is not accepted nowadays.

I do not see much of a problem with socialising including drinking alcohol after work, which of course is before work, as long as one keeps to the limits. And keeping to the limits is not much of a problem as long as you prefer to have a good night's sleep, a shower and breakfast before commencing duty the next morning. Those should take enough time to sober up after reasonable drinking. And you should have had all those, sleep, shower, breakfast in order to be fit for duty.

It's all common sense, really, isn't it?

Kind regards

Christoph

 

As I said before, there's a world of difference, & culture, with having a few pints with your mates, than with going out on the town & getting ratarsed.
The totallitairian banning of things seems to be the way of life in the modern world, & I think the younger generation are missing out on a lot of the freedoms we had, & I DONT mean turning up pissed for duty! Which was'nt acceptible then as now!

 

There is no choice about Heritage Railways abiding by the TWA - its primary legislation, ignore it at your peril. The point JTX was making (if I read it correctly) is that the legal limit for TWA is the same for driving a motor vehicle on a road and that should be sufficient.

 

Sorry but I am not being over the top. The level of alcohol is alot less than it is for driving on the roads....fact.
On the railways if you are even just a smidgen over the level you are sacked.....no questions ....sacked.

And the above also applies to preserved railways too.

Sir,

I am not going to bite but what I will say again is that the max level of alcohol allowed in your body is alot less than it is for driving a car. This applies to all staff.

Whilst you may have been working for your railway for 40 years (and well done too) may I suggest that you find out what the railways policies are on alcohol before work. I hope you will find that it backs up my professional knowledge that the level is alot less than it is to drive a car.

The best attitude to have is to make sure that there is no alcohol in ones body before signing on for duty.

 

I think common sense needs to be applied here. Clearly 2 pints (as long as it's not too strong) is fine the night before duty. Most pints are around 2 units and it takes an hour to get rid of a unit so 8 hours sleep = 8 units.

Our rule book says you shouldn't consume any alcohol 8 hours before you sign on.

 

Most rulebooks both mainline & some heritage lines state you shouldn't go onto licensed premises whilst in uniform.
Also the same applies for support crews on mainline steam locos about being on duty with alcohol in the bloodstream.
I once fired on heritage line with a hangover, as the old statement goes ....Never again!!