snow and steam

can anybody recall what happeend on Southern Region and in particular on SE section where electrification was taking place during winter 1962/3 when there was a lot of snow and a big freeze?

Did they use steam instead of electrics or did they use diesel locos on main line duties.

Did steam/diesels do snow pllough duties?

Did they use bankers on London bound run out of Rochester up to Sole Street in bad weather?

Are they present delays accentuated because there are now less coaches, diesels available to replace elctric trains which are affected by 3rd rail freezing?

Could there be a possible main line role for the seemingly large number of main line steam locos now available or would the logistics of coal, water, pathing etc be too much of a logistical nightmare?

How, incidentally does the reliability of the preserved fleet compare with day to day experience of , say, the Bulleid fleet during pre 1967 period?

How many Bulleids, say, are main- line worthy at present?

 

firstly in 1962/3 the railway was vastly different than it is now,the SE division would have been able to still call on a huge number of steam locos and stock, , as long as an engine had an air pump , which several brighton and Ashford classes did have, then they could power emus.
the ceps were very heavy compared with modern stock and so would have not had the traction problems you get now, plus the shoe gear was more robust and would have handled ice build up better.

As much as we would love to see steam taking over services in such times, its not cost effective, and would be a logistical nightmere, who hires what, who crews them, then theres the lack of turning facilities at most major terminus stations the only time it has worked is because there happened to be a steam tour working the same route on that day and there were spare seats , unless you have a timetable already drawn up, an engine thats either air fitted , or has a rake of coaches availible ,coal and watering facilities on stand by you could not introduce a steam engine onto a service as replacement motive power .

 

So, does this mean that the serious questions should be about how the modern rolling stock and power units are specified? Was this over-optimism about climate and or extreme cost shaving by train buyers? Can the same argument be applied to Eurostar services too?

I hope someone can answer the other questions too.

 

I can't really answer your specific comments but, I can comment generally. Firstly, although 62-3 was the year of the big freeze, it was its duration that gave it notoriety; the railways were well used to such conditions, albeit over shorter periods. Just watch the film Snowdrift at Bleath Gill, if you're in any doubt. We were well used to frozen pipes and what to do to avoid problems. The diesels suffered quite badly in those conditions and steam was a regular substitute on many services. There were plenty of snowploughs around, as well, both buffer beam ploughs and independent ploughs so it was much easier to keep the lines sufficiently clear. A lot of signalling was still mechanical and, if the manpower was available, could be kept operational. Men on the ground can keep pointwork, etc, cleared, something that you can't do sat in a central signalling location. A steam lance on a loco can work wonders, as well. Today's trains generally have computers on board (not heard of in 1962) and these are very susceptible to electric arcing. Another fact not really thought about was that there wasn't the instant communication that there is today and people only knew about any disruption if it affected them. Up in Yorkshire, we probably wouldn't have know about problems in Kent (or cared!) There was little in the way of hysteria from the media and Joe Public just got on with life. If your train was late, you just waited for it to arrive, which it generally did, eventually. In that respect, getting on with it is something that I've done this last few weeks. I might have had to dig my way off the drive and up the road but the weather hasn't stopped me doing anything I wanted to do. I just set off a lot earlier and go prepared.

 

Can't see a place for steam substitute passenger services for several reasons but it does get you thinking what would (will?) happen when snowfall is deep enough to require ploughing.

In the 1963 winter pretty well every loco depot had a snowplough or two & certainly quite a few steam locos to power them. Seem to remember at least one 2251 0-6-0 locally spending the whole winter with a plough on each end.

In 2010 where are the ploughs now? - there were a few converted tenders but most (all?) of these are now withdrawn.

Even if there were ploughs are there anything like enough locos to power them?

Could just see how 2 steam locos pointing opposite ways with the GUV water carrier between them and a plough on each end would be quite useful providing water & coal can be replenished.

 

if i remember correctly Eastleigh used to always have a black motor or Q class with a perminant snowplow in place of its front buffers fitted every winter just for snow clearing duties
the problem is that the railway is now a very different place, for instance the first question to be asked would be, how much will a stand by loco cost us off our bottom line? followed by, is it more than the refunds we would expect to have to pay out if we only do the bare minimum

 

There has been no commitment to keeping lines open for years now.

The railway in those days was common carrier and in many ways a lifeline. It isn't now, so planning for severe weather basically means cancel and sit it out.

I'm not saying I agree with that course of action - just stating what the corporate line is on today's railway.

 

my grandfather was a guard on SE line (based at Faversham working both passenger and freight from Dover-London) from 1920's- 1950's and I get the impression from his stories that fear of getting hauled over the coals by the supervisor and station masters was big factor in their attitude to keeping the trains running. How good were the men at keeping trains running through war years and in peace time in bad weather?

Do you think it's a generational thing (I'm in my 50's) that we were brought up to get our hands dirty, many of us did manual jobs and getting dirty/hurt was what we expected anyway or is technology now such a driver on the railway that we are, as people, are pretty irrelevant ?

 

Got it in one.
Nowadays it all comes down to the bottom line, with no thought that maybe they should be providing a public service.
Oh, sorry I forgot Hedge Fund Managers and the like don't need to travel by public transport so why worry about the 'plebs', as long as the government keep coughing up subsidies enough to give them a profit.?

 

I think its just that the bean counters rule the roost these days and any kind of contingency planning is seen as a waste of money... Not only thought, but with outsourced contracts any exception to the standard service costs several arms and legs, so is frowned on. It also means that there is no pool of labour available: you can't take people of one less urgent task and put them on another more urgent one if they are employed by completely different companies... the days when your local council could get the guys who mow the school playing fields in the summer to help out with clearing the roads in the winter are long gone...

 

Off topic so sorry, but the BAA situation is a disgrace. Couple of weeks ago a fella lost his job because he couldn't keep Scotland moving. This BAA team have a few miles at the most of dead flat runway and taxiway to keep clear, de ice some aeroplanes, and it's got them beat. Lack of investment in equipment. Remind me again how much annual profit they make. :censored:

 

It does seem on the surface that steam has the advantage over modern traction, but I assure you that running steam in this weather is no picnic!

Anything that uses water in these temperatures is going to have issues. Yes we can run bags into the tender tanks off the steam heat to reduce ice in the tenders, but then you have to be ultra careful to stop the injectors freezing....you can't leave them on the whole time, but you almost have to to stop them freezing.

Another huge problem with steam on the mainline is getting water every 70 miles or so. In this weather hydrants are out, so you have to rely on water tankers - big logistical nightmare.

The amount of time and effort it takes to get one of these engines moving is unheard of these days. To keep the current main-line preserved fleet running on a daily basis would cause a dip in unemployment overnight!

Maybe that's the answer! Lol

 

Yes, and staying off topic, it is due to a lack of investment in snow / ice clearing technology, same as Network Rail. BUT - money invested there is money not invested elsewhere - into facilities which are needed all year around. Basically, you have one set of investments or the other, not both. We aren't normally hit by extreme weather conditions, at least for any long period, so that particular investment would mostly be lying around unused. If, though, severe weather is going to be common in future, then the priority of snow clearance equipment moves up the scale, and improved facilities within air terminals - or railway stations - moves downwards.

There is little point complaining about the profits privatised industries make. Like all private businesses, that's what they do: make money. This was realised and expected by the Government when the nationalised industries were farmed out to investors; they are simply doing what was expected of them. If you wish to complain about excessive profits, complain about the ELECTED goverment which turned the investors loose.

 

Another factor in keeping things going was pay. I well remember a conversation with a bus driver on one particular snowy evening. i asked him why he kept going and didn't abandon the bus. his answer was simple. 'Whilst I'm sat here, I'm getting paid. if I abandon the job and go back to the depot, I don't get paid.'

 

"Investors" You mean that lot of white socked spivs that stole the taxpayer funded industries with a majority based on 32% of those that bothered to vote! No wonder "Call me Dave" couldn't get a working majority last May after the Tories had endured thirteen years in the wilderness - We hadn't forgotten.

And the way they are going now in coalition - thank God they didn't get a majority - 1,000 mph into unconsidered perdition.

£9Bn worth of brand new Nimrods getting gas axed at the bottom of the road here - well done George!!

 

the real problem is that every organisation does not have the work force to cope in these type of emergencies, every employer operates on the mimimum they need to get the job done and rely on overtime and good will when things go belly up this along with cost reducing programes means that people cant get out and about, and use what they normally take for granted , when you think it doesnt take much these days to bring the whole of england and most of europe to a stand still , Public services are viewed by politicians as costing too much, but look at it like this, if this had happened after so many local councils had sacked the staff or had tendered out gritting operations to the lowest(poorest level of service) operator as some would wish, how bad could it have been?

 

Yes, that's them.

 

Them?? - I bet the pension of everybody reading this thread depends on these investors!!

 

Another very frightening thought.