34058 - Mid Hants Bound

Yes, there was a time when SLL were looking to build a series of brand new tenders (which they are doing as we speak; one of them have been running behind 34070 for the last few years, and another one is close to completion for use behind 34053), and put the word out that other Bulleid groups were welcome to add to the order, thus cutting the costs. I belive 34058 was one of the beneficiaries of this arrangement.

 

As has 34007. Just needs putting together, as the the tank is complete however the frames are only part finished.

 

34046 another?

 

Though the five new apprentices should help with the work load.

Regards
Chris

 

There is such a thing as having too many trainees, to reach a point when the workload on skilled staff is too great for the trainees to get the necessary training. At this point the trainees become skivvies, particularly at the wage rates the MHR is paying.

Regards

 

I'm not too sure about 34046's tender; I think that was done on its own, hence why it is being given disk wheels (a shame, but mustn't quibble too much, as at least its moving under its own steam again). Otherwise, the wheels and tank components could have been ordered at the same time.

 

Agree, but given the frame profile on the Bulleid tenders you can see little of the wheel centres anyway. Also the wheels would become a blur at any speed anyway, so visually the compromise would only be evident when static and observed at close quarters. That said, the new wheels produced for 34058's tender do look rather snazzy!

 

I read in the Southern Locomotives house journal that enough imperial dimensioned steel pate for approximately 7 tenders chassis was ordered many years ago, these were then used for 34010, 34028, 34070 (34072 being built some time before using 34023 old tank and some recovered BFB wheel sold by the Bluebell) and three sold to owners of 34046, 34058 and 34007. The final plate being sold to the owners of 44123 for their 4F

More details here - http://southernpacificarchive.fotopic.net/p61681479.html

 

There's also some more on Bulleid tenders, and those used and built by SLL, on the website: http://www.southern-locomotives.co.uk/Class_Details/Bulleid_Light_Pacific_Tenders.html

 

Bulleid tender tank on a 4F chassis? Would look interesting.

 

In a word.. Yes.

 

If I may just clarify:

The tender frames on a Bulleid are 7/8" thick. It was the owner of 34058 who dealt with British Steel (as it was then) and got them to roll a batch of 7/8" thick plate (not 22mm) for 34058's tender. This took approx 18 months of hard work, muchos heavy correspondence, and foot dragging on the part of British Steel as initially they were not interested at all... SLL came in on this order to make it viable and because they knew they were going to have to build loads of tenders... some of which are now completed I believe. (and if I may add - to go to all this effort to get 'Genuine Imperial plate' so the tender is original and then go and put diesel wheels underneath it seems rather distasteful!).

To return the favour, so to speak, 34058 was able to take advantage of SLL's order for BFB wheels.... Right frames. Right wheels. Sorted.


The 7/8" plate sold to the 4F is a smaller piece and is actually for the loco rear dragbox top and bottom plates and not the tender frames. And yes - suprise suprise, the dragbox on a 4F is made from 7/8" plate, not 22mm...

The tender frames on a 4F/Fowler tender are 1" thick.

Almost the whole of the tender on 4123 is totally and utterly rotten/broken/f*cked. The only bits that will end up being re-used are the wheels, horn guides, spring hangars, springs, some parts of the brake gear and a few minor fittings. Everything else is (or will) be new construction...which is quietly progressing by the way.

http://www.4123.co.uk/news_archive.html

James
www.4123.co.uk

 

Nice to see so many people intrested in 058 now.It seemed to be one of the forgotten ones.
But how you ment to forget a Bulleid I dont know.I look forward to seeing her run on the railway

 

Good Evening All

ML Vout is in fact Honnary CME of said LM society, well was at my last talking to him. (Corrected in the next posting he was until about 6 months ago, but the change was not publicised) .

Your very correct "Big Mike" has taught many people many things, most of them have been exceedingly pleased with his guidance on many matters not just Engineering related.

He did leave MHR because he saw activity he did not agree with.

Would the 3F 4F or SFP be steaming by now had they stayed , I would say possibly but possibly not. It has never been Mike's plan to restore the 4F or 34058 "Fast", yes he wishes to see it run eventually, but not in the condition many others have been completed or operated in.

For the benifit of those who do not know him, He has a very high quality standard, where things have to be "right" made to drawing and fitted first time.

Please do not confuse this with being picky or difficult, its about being a Professional Engineer , for which he has the relevant credentials and letters.

I have worked with Mike now for more than 25 years he says what he wants, specifies it in detail with dimensions specs or a description and requires a "Yes " I can get it it will cost "X" or no I cannot , but I could get this is this suitable.?That is all

He then explains or deliberates and you get a conclusive answer yes (do) or no (do not).

His biggest atribute to me over all the years I have known him, is he is honest as the day is long, straight , to the point, has no interest in other peoples plans ormisdomeners, or issues and just gets on with his chosen project ( unless they start to affect him by association) such events are not recomended .

SFP 34058, has been his own private project to build an original Rebuilt Battle of Britian, as good as the ones that left any of the SR works in the 50's, that is a tall order, and one with a significant price tag.

Until now no one has had financial input into this Restoration / Rebuild. Many parts have been made "NEW", not cobbled from another loco.

After a lengthy consideration of many drawings, some new drawings and some redesign and reproving of calculations and accumulated dimensions. He or we have made NEW parts.

If you want to see the finished article possibly as the finest BB to be out shopped , this one could and most probably will be it.

This is not a reflection on any other person or group and we acnowledge they have made superb restorations in some cases, there are many locos out there operating doing sterling service and lokking and working fine, and those people have managed what we are still working toward !! so we are in no way criticising.

Mike is now not as young as he was, and has hopes to see it finished correctly at some stage. For many of us the challenge has been and is to see the final product correctly assembled and outshopped.

Getting there by a date in 6 months 12 months or18 months is not relevant the interest is in making all the parts and see them assembled.

When it enters service it should do so finished with all the parts in A1 NEW condition and able to run trouble free for a long period possibly including Main Line operation.

The 4F LM soc different animal , is continuing at Bitton (AVR), there are no plans right now to move it anywhere at present, not that that should be totally precluded. James and Carl are working on its progress, with Jim F.This loco has a shareholding of many people some originally from MHR.

MLV has the sole shareholding in 34058 & Tender yes there are several people working closely with him, he trusts them implicitly, they have gained this possition over many years, should others wish to join in , they will need to demonstrate how and where they will fit.

He will chose how best to deal with this, he does care about the long term plan for the locomotive, beyond his lifetime.As well as the provision of professional engineers of all disciplines to keep the railways working.

Steam loco's are only anything when they are alive, and in steam, they require an understanding of many things, that are not taught in todays world. I would say the locomotive is not an object of money, but is a project he has allocated a large part of his life to. Please consider that aspect if you are with him or become involved in the restoration. If you have questions to ask always do your research before you start, he will have as many questions for you as you have for him, he is quite an authority on technical design of OV's products and detail about aspects of 34058's construction. As "Oldchap " say's he is a man of few words and much action, especially when it comes to big pieces of red hot metal to heavy to handle with one pair of tongs and hydraulic presses, but a joy to watch and work with.


The T1 boiler belongs to (John F) he is a "Bristol Boy all the way through" it is his personal project , so i would doubt it will ever be leaving Bristol.


I hope this might clear up some unknowns, biggest problem in life is incorrect information or assumption.

The genuine 7/8" 50DD 22' 6" x 4' 6" half tollerance flat was rolled at "BSC Motherwell" before the plant closed for good, the commercial department of BSC rejected the order could not own to supply to our spec ( a certain amount of navigation off chart then took place) , but we knew there were men there who could and would do it, the conversation was made by telephone by me to the rolling shop forman, the order was tagged with a specific code so he knew it was "ours" , he knew what we wanted and why we wanted it to that spec and what it was going to be used for ( they were amused slightly and pleased to think that the product they were making would be used for Loco building in the UK, where once their main output went into valuable items the UK produced for the world).It was rolled on a night shift and he personally supervised it and its transport from the mill to the stock yard so that it was not dammaged or bent, it was loaded to a very specific loading diagram on the road trailer and arived at Bitton in perfect condition every plate a perfect one.Special lifting beam was constructed to ensure no distortion when handling the plates.

Sadly its probably the last Tender or loco frame plate that will get rolled in the UK to that spec, certainly Motherwell is now gone as has Tee Side.

Best Regards

The Engineer

 

34058 INFORMATION

Reason for leaving AVR a charge was proposed to be levied based on the cost AVR view on storage and work area, combined with their view it would never run on their railway ( Too Big ).

The owner felt this to be an unreasonable charge. Whilst the owner has been at the AVR working generally on locomotive restoration (4F), a considerable amount of patterns and castings have been produced for the eventual completion of the 4F as well as some work on patterns for 34058, and the manufacture of many parts for 34058 and also including some work for the AVR occasionally. MLV retains an interest in 44123, has relinquished his possition of Honnary CME in favour of James Fibbens CE taking it up. James is now managing the 4F rebuild where we are focusing on completing the Tender from a scratch build.

MLV would like to place on record his thanks to many people over the last 25 years especially "William Bath Engineer Southern Locomotives" who has been extreemly helpfull, toward 34058's restoration, over the past considerable number of years.


To many observers it may seem that over the last 20+ years little has happened with 34058, this is not strictly true , most of the work done is in fact not on show.The boiler had all its tubes removed, was shot blasted and primed about 6 years ago, this is really the only visual work.

I can confirm movement arangemnts for the Locomotive are in hand and the preparation for haulage is being done currently, along with one PMV containing NEW and 34058's reusable steel parts excluding

"All non ferrous fittings are held away from site in secure storage" .

MHR management are aware and in agreement of these facts for the restoration and use of the locomotive.

34058 Tender frame plates are being profiled,and this is currently in hand delivery imminent BRISTOL.

34058 Tender wheels are already moved to MHR along with Axle boxes. Some deliberation is currently in hand about exact machining dimensions, and axle float, to leading trailing and centre axles of the tender.Work on horn guide machining and axleboxes is in hand.

Les Driver is a new addition to the 34058 team, working cloesly with Mike Vout over the last 12 months on this work at MHR and Portsmouth. Les will be new to some people in standard gauge circles but he has no problem with big pieces of metal or people in the way. I have worked with Les on another project, where I met him back in 2004/3.

From our interaction , He is in my opinion a very tallented hands on engineer especially on milling and boring machines where he excells. His fitting and fabrication is also second to none when it comes to detail work, but he doesen't do wood or paint or making tea !! Please dont ask him.

I hope that those who make his aquaintance find him as thorough and quality orientated as I have, many of us have been involved with Les and got on well he has helped train many young people . He is known to some of us by the nickname "Gruby", but its the last thing you would say about the work he produces.I will leave the rest for you individuals to find out.

Best Regards. TheEngineer.

 

Many thanks to "TheEngineer" for that very informative update!

 

I look forward to seeing SirF be it in 2, 5 or 10 years time, because it looks like this is being one Mother of all restoration jobs!

 

I can't see the MHR being too happy if something clogs up the works for too long.

 

It may be some time ( Years) before it is scheduled to enter the works , MHR and their people, already have a plan for other restorations, I expect the relevant people, will consider , where and how it might be done, parts still need to be made and completed although much has been done.

34058 will no doubt be part of a bigger picture of motive power fleet requirement, stretching ahead into the future,(self sufficiency) not for this year or next. Do not be alarmist its not jumping any que's just got a new home where when its finished it will work.