The Flying Scotsman Livery Poll

I also was suggesting this way of painting for when Tornado is perhaps going to Meiningen sometime...

 

Wartime Black

 

I thought there was a policy of not mentioning the war, i think i might have done once but i got away with it...

 

These results are quite interesting, as far as they go. What I take from it is that amongst this very specialised audience, who know far more about this subject than the vast majority of the public who will ride behind her, there's a hankering for authenticity as much as there is for one shade of green over another.

But I also suspect most of us are probably - ie, if pushed - in the third category of 1 in 5 who don't care at all as long as FS (1472/4472/103/E103/60103) is out, about and running on the mainline - and making enough money to secure her a long-term future on the big stage. Though there's no chance of her being mortgaged or anything else again, it would be very sad if she were to be plinthed in the NRM in 7-10 years' time for want of an overhaul budget.

And with that in mind, a big pat on the back to Anthony and his team at the NRM for doing the job properly.

Tobbes

 

Apple Green, handpainted many coats & layers varnish! Why would anyone want to paint it BR black/green/Caledonian blue there's enough of that anyway, let Tornado wear different greens like its namesake. Did this engine that he public identify do anything at all not in GN /lner Apple Green, no? Remember modern spray paint doesn't truly do the elegant liveries justice. There's some great examples around the nrm. Might as well paint the thing properly after all the expense not spared. Apparently at Doncaster it was compared to the 'new airbrushing' and was deemed unbelievably better than modern spray painting (not sure date-grandfather worked there until 1933.)-realistic labour economics aside. Think of the incredible job on the Duchess(Ok for all I know sprayed but was a different era!) don't fail on the paint because of loud pressure groups!

 

Why is m&gn50's post shown on new posts with a date of 13.1.11 and a time of 9.42 am whilst the above post shows 12.1.11 10.21pm? Is it my computer causing the problem?

 

It's not just you, my one in the 'box shows it as well.

 

Yep, it repeated on me too. Must be forum-wide demons at work.

 

It does seem clear that we all want her running, but at the same time most of us would prefer a slightly less compromising livery than at the moment (after all, painting her in anything except the very last style of LNER-green is incorrect for her A3 condition, but that is getting really silly!). The main issue is the deflectors and double chimney combined with LNER green.

Two thoughts (I am reiterating other member's comments, clarified into one post):

1) Apple Green is Flying Scotsman's general public 'brand'. Maximum income will result from maintaining it. The Great British Public don't give a flying monkey's about deflectors.
2) The double chimney (and therefore the deflectors) result in a locomotive powerful enough for the modern mainline - even with reasonable loads you want the best in the current mainline climate. So from that perspective double chimney and deflectors are a no-brainer. Maximum use will result from maintaining them.

Catch 22!

That being said, a single chimney with/without Lempor blastpipe to enhance the power would be nice, but with the new smokebox that this would entail how would it fare against the NRM's policy of restoration of existing parts rather than replacement? Very little of 4472 can be original 1922/3 now, but I'm aware that the NRM will be loath to replace what they bought where they can restore it.

So next question - where does NRM's policy of accurately recording our heritage come in. They've spent many more thousands of pounds overhauling an original A3 boiler rather than a dimensionally identical A4 boiler, so why could they then allow 4472 to appear in a compromise livery that is much more inaccurate than any other ex-BR loco out there?

I'm not criticising the NRM, just pondering a few unpleasant situations that it finds itself in. Striking the balance between heritage and revenue/attraction to core customers (i.e. in this instance the public) will always be a compromise, be it in a locomotive or an entire museum.

 

how would it fare against the NRM's policy of restoration of existing parts rather than replacement

That's not our policy - it's people's perception of what we do. Each vehicle is assessed individually. Some that approach suits, others it doesn't.

where does NRM's policy of accurately recording our heritage come in

In a detailed Conservation Management Plan which we are now creating for every item of rolling stock in the collection - what its history pre and post preservation has been, what's been done to it, how and when, and what we advocate for the future.

why could they then allow 4472 to appear in a compromise livery that is much more inaccurate than any other ex-BR loco out there?

It's accurate to the period post 1999. The loco's history did not stop in 1962. However, we do and are noting comments. There are inaccuracies on many other vehicles in the collection - accidents of history as it were...where shall I begin?

It's not an unpleasant situation in my view - as I have said before, things can and may be changed, but it takes time and money.

 

Hear, hear! Her post-1999 livery is as "authentic" as her 1962 livery or her 1926 livery. Very few locos in the NRM collection can tell the story of steam after "the end of steam" but FS has played a staring role in that story, and long may she continue to do so.

BTW, I do like the idea of a Lempor exhaust, not because it might use a chimney that looks more like a pre-war chimney, but because it moves the loco's development further forward and, hopefully, will provide some useful savings in the fuel bill when out on the mainline.

 

This thread the top topic, whilst the important topic for Scotsman is now relegated to the second page....

I think that sums this place up in many ways!

 

Found this pic of FS's cab via a thread on the SVRA Forum. Thought the number scrawled (optomistically?!) on the can side sheet to be of interest... )

http://william.fotopic.net/p68679083.html

 

I think it's something the mod's are doing to keep the poll's near the top of the new posts list.

 

Thanks Anthony for your reply. It is interesting to have a semi-official NRM position on the forum. Clearly, I was mistaken regarding the 'conservation over replacement in every case' suggestion that I made (I was not criticising such an approach, though in hindsight I may have come across as doing so, for which I apologise) - what would the Museum's policy be on a single chimney smokebox with/without lempor being fabricated?

It is good to know that a CMP is being made for all rolling stock, to record its history, and presumably (?) to enable its story to be told to the public in the best way possible.

I appreciate that in its current, 'spurious' livery 4472 is in effect representing its own recent history. The story of preservation and mainline running post-1968 is one that I agree needs to be recorded and told. Personally however, I don't like the current state of affairs with 4472, but as I say that is my personal opinion. I feel that when 4472 is out and about it is inescapably representing the history of railways prior to the end of steam, it is after all a steam locomotive, and that to run it in a livery/state combination that is quite noticeably incorrect for its pre-1999 years (and more importantly its pre-1963 years) is not representing the heritage that the locomotive represents as best as it could be.

I'm aware that there are a lot of inaccuracies on other vehicles in the collection, however I would personally assert that they are not as visually noticeable as 4472's livery/deflector combination, and as such are of less importance from a heritage perspective, although they should still be recorded for history.

I'm also well aware that an awful lot of time and money is involved in the game that we all play to greater or lesser extents, and that the NRM has a limited budget. I'm also aware that the NRM is, in the main, out to educate people about our railways, and that it faces a lot of unneccesary flak from the enthusiast fraternity (surely no other sphere of heritage must have so many enthusiasts and experts?). I will be very happy to see 4472 out and about in steam, in whatever livery/state combination is eventually chosen!

PS LOVING 13000's new livery!

 

Thanks Jamie, very kind of you to say about 13000 - now spot the inaccuracies on that ;-) I know what they are...

Apologies if my answers seem brief - it's been a busy day, but I felt your questions needed a quick response before speculators jumped in. Going off to write about crane tanks now - once I've read the Leighton Buzzard vertical boiler thread (a particular hobby horse of mine having once built a 16mm scale De Winton)...

 

Not wishing to be pedantic or overtly on-topic (!), but regarding the inaccuracies on 13000 is precisely my point regarding the general inaccuracies that can be found across preservation - 13000 to my eye looks 'right', despite the inaccuracies, whereas, again to my eye, 4472 doesn't look 'right'.

 

Can someone sort the posting times on "new posts" as the last post was yesterday 13.1.11 yet on new posts it's a recent post. Let's be honest this poll is a waste of time as with 11k+ members and only 257 voters the obvious winner is "don't care" as they can't be bothered posting. Just out of interest how many still use this forum?

 

Ok in answer to the new posts thing, I noticed this a few days ago with the poll threads. Every time someone votes it bumps the thread up as though there has been a new post in that thread. I think it is built into the software as it is happening with all the poll threads. Also polls cannot be edited once set up except to close or open them. The options can't be changed once set up such as if someone forgot to put an option in there and went back to it later to add another option it can't be done.

Hope this helps, Neil.