Mallard

Barrow Hill 2035 for 6 A4s together anyone?

 

well, the stuff about the boiler work, axel box casting, copper price increase, new smokebox, chimney and frames repairs came from the NRM, i seem to remember (which was the reason behind the initial restoration target of 2009 being pushed back to this year), and anyone who's ever had to move a loco by road will tell you how expensive such moves can be. £15000 it cost to move 35025, as a kit of parts, one way from Loughborough to Sellindge, so think of the costs involved when moving the frames, wheels, boiler and other items of 4472 as many times as has been done between York and Bury (and any other places they may have been off to).

And re:4472's frames, there was a thread on natpres a few months back where there was something of a discussion on locomotive frames, I seem to recall it was a blog by harpomarxist about the continuation of a locomotive's identity through time. In it, someone suggested that the frames of 4472 were actually stamped with the identity of another loco. Elsewhere I've heard Salmon Trout mentioned. However, being as it is an internet forum, its best to take such info with a pinch of salt, hence why i ASKED if 4472's frames might not be the originals. However, having been in the guise of 4472 for so long, whichever loco it is will always be known as 4472 to the people who come far and wide to see her.

On which point, it may be a good idea to bring this thread back on topic, without request from the mods/admins. We were all talking about Mallard and I used the frames possibility of 4472 as an example in arguing the case that authenticity of locomotive parts is somewhat debatable, as is any philosophy. So let's return to Gresley's gleaming blue beast, firmly grasping one of the few world records we have left, and how to celebrate her 75th and 100th anniversaries.

 

;;;;;

 

Wasn't Miles Beevor broken up at Crewe after donating parts for SNG in the 60s? Common practice for bits to be swapped between locos.

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Tim
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Correct, Miles Beavor donated some of her wheels, as they were in much better condition

 

the swopping of parts between classmates is nothing new and i personally dont have any problem with it, To most people Mallard is a blue A4 restored to its outwardly looking LNER condition but im sure that if you were to look under the valances and paint, she would still be in as retired by BR condition .

weither she gets restored or not, there should be an special event put on at york to celibrate the occation of the braking of the steam speed record by her involving the other record holders in the collection and other suitable engines of an LNER bias if it was decided to make an LNER event out of it , or to maximise the attractions by holding a separate LNER gala at York or Shildon engines such as an A4, A3, A1 all in steam with the A2 static would be a crowd puller especially if some way to make use of 4472 and 60163 on shuttles between the two sites for an all in ticket if this was included
the modern LNER company could even get involved by painting an HST into silver livery and running this as a special non stop to york as part of the celibration as well as an A4 hauled run using one of the mainline registerd A4,s prefably Bittern with its valances refitted and re painted up as silver link which could then be shown at york along with Mallard during the week end before running another special back to london double headed with either the A1 or A3 if poss either that or a a1/ a3 combo would be a sight

 

Martin,
You'll get no argument from me with your suggestion of recreating the sight 2509 on the main line. If we could then get a second A4 running in blue with valances refitted then that would be very nice indeed.

 

As I may have mentioned elsewhere in this forum, let's pool all our resources into bringing 60008 back, then we can have her (him) as:
a) 4496 “Golden Shuttle” in LNER Garter Blue with side sheets
b) plain black with “LNER” on the tender, and no side sheets
c) plain black with “NE” on the tender
d) Garter Blue without side sheets as “Dwight D Eisenhower”
e) BR Blue as 60008, and finally
f) BR Green, and I've not mentioned single/double chimney and LNER standard whistle, or No. 598 which was allocated but never carried!

Back on topic; a few phots from 1986/7:

Kirkham Priory 25 Aug 86

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Crimple South Junction (site of) 26 Apr 87

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26 Apr 87

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26 Apr 87

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Poppleton 26 Apr 87

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All this harping on about "originality" does not tend to go on as much in other spheres of preservation ive found, at the end of the day remember the old storyof Cromwells knife: "We've had this knife in our family since the civil war, its had 3 new blades and 4 new handles, but its still the same knife"

 

And museums the world over are very careful to establish the provenance of something, and effectively telling the story of any alterations it has been through, before displaying an artefact.

 

Quite right. "Original" certainly isn't a term that can be applied to any Barry restoration owing to the large amount of new material and components required to complete the task.

 

Agreed. Preserving steam engines isn't about keeping every original component. Its about preserving the technology. Original parts where possible, new parts to original specs where required. Even, dare i say it, improvements where wanted.

 

I would agree in principle that in the main locomotive preservation is about keeping them in an operable condition, and where possible this can and must involve the replacement of life expired components.
However, I think we should bear in mind that what the railway preservation world as a whole do is not necessarily what the NRM should do. As well as preserving our heritage they have a duty to conserve it also, so that we may learn about the materials and methods used originally. Sometimes, this will result in a locomotive not running again, and it is for Curators and Experts to decide this, not for the public, which we are as far as the NRM is concerned.

 

Regarding Mallard just what exactly are they conserving? Certainly not the 4468 which broke the record as that loco ceased to exist in the true sense once it went into The Plant for its next overhaul. I can see the argument for the conservation of something that is truly original but how many locos out there can claim to be that?

 

I am finally writing an article which will put all this into context and hopefully lay some of the myths about the NRM and what it does and why.

 

That guarantees us an interesting and very informative read. Looking forward to it.

 

Very true, I appreciate what you're saying. I know that the engine that came into the possession of the BTM and then the NRM is only in part the locomotive that did 126mph in 1938. Nevertheless, any overhaul will probably remove a little more of what remains from that special July day, and I don't feel that that is a very good thing.

More importantly, in my opinion, with three A4s out on the mainline, Mallard becomes, in Britain at least, the most original example of an A4 we have, just as 34051 is the most original BoB, 2818 the most original 28xx etc. Whilst there are other A4s to be seen, smelt and heard in steam, I don't think Mallard should steam, because of its originality (relatively) to pre-preservation days.

Anthony - I look forward to reading your article. It will be interesting to see the official stance the NRM has on the 'preservation v. conservation' debate. We've all been second guessing it!