7827 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

In the new edition of HR (147) 7827 is to be painted in lined black for a special 28-30 May event it will also adopt the identity of Torquay Manor 7800 for that weekend and then revert back to Lydham Manor but will retain the black livery. Interesting !

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

Nice. As a BR-built Manor it will be nice to see it in an authentic livery.

Then again, ANOTHER BR black engine is a bit tedious, even if the livery is quite fetching on GW designed locos.

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

Wow well done Paignton! Are we sure it is not April?

For me this is more significant than Scotsman in NE black but we just need some blood and custards to go with it.....

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

A great decision for this BR build loco , it's been in the incorrect livery for far too long ,time for a change !

Well done Dartmouth Railway

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

Sounds good. It's just a shame I am working and won't be able to get there to see it carrying the 'Torquay Manor' nameplates. If it's re-painted into the historically accurate black livery perhaps it may interest other railways to try and hire it in for galas.
An interesting development.

Paul

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

If true, excellent news! makes me more determined to come down and visit in the summer.

 

I don't think that it's unreasonable to argue the "historically incorrect" livery point in 7827's case.

7827 was built in 1950 and sold to Woodhams in 1966. It was purchased by the DVR in 1970 and restored 1973.

The DVR is a commercial operation. It's not a "preserved railway" in the normally accepted meaning of the term. Not a criticism, a statement of fact. The DVR company policy until fairly recently was to paint all of its locomotives in Great Western livery. That is/was its "Corporate livery". BR owned 7827 for 16 years, Woodhams for four and the DVR for 41 years to date. Who is therefore to say that the 41 years of DVR ownership aren't part of the history of the locomotive?

LT bought several panniers from BR and painted them in their livery. I don't hear anyone calling LT livery "historically incorrect" on these engines, and I don't personally see any difference.

Anyway, since none of the GWR-built Manors has run in GWR livery for the best part of 30 years, I don't think it's unreasonable for one of the BR-built batch to keep the livery "alive". We have had BR black twice in the meantime (7819, then 7821).

Where did I leave my coat...?

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

Nope, it's not an April fool. As from the end off May she will be in full lined out BR Black.

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

You're absolutely right, it doesn't really matter in the general scheme of things. However, there is no denying that it is technically inaccurate, so as enthusiasts it is not overly surprising that we're happy it's going into an authentic livery that also fills a gap left since the withdrawal of 7821.

 

OK, so why, in your opinion, is DVR Corporate livery technically inaccurate whilst LT Corporate livery isn't? My opinion is that the DVR isn't a preserved railway in the normally accepted sense (it has paid dividends to its shareholders, for example), so it could be argued that 7827 isn't a preserved locomotive.

 

Re: 4727 Lydham Manor to go Black on the P & D.

Hi Dave,
You mention above, that until fairly recently the DVR policy was to paint it's locos in GWR livery. In fact, it would probably have been more accurate to have said that it was an interpretation of GWR livery.
However, I think enthusiasts in general consider that after August 1968 steam has become preserved and don't generally regard it as still working. But of course, as you rightly state, it could be argued that 7827 is still a working loco having become un-preserved as it genuinely was a preserved loco at one time and owes it's existence to that fact.

It will be good to see it in black though, whether it's preserved or working.

Regards,

Paul

 

I'm surprised that the railway is doing this as they are always very clear that they run for tourists not enthusiasts and have always argued that tourists like green locos with names

 

Then lets hope that this is a big enough sign, that we aren't just for tourists! We want the enthusiasts too!

 

The DVR 'Corporate' livery - which in 7827's case is currently an interpretation of GWR livery - is post-1968, the end of steam on standard gauge BR lines in Britain.
Whilst I suppose that you are right in suggesting that 7827 isn't preserved, it would not be being used (a diesel would) if the DVR were not intentionally evoking the days of steam. So whilst the DVR is first and foremost a tourist operation it has strong heritage overtones, so is in effect trying to portray pre-1968 scenes. The livery that 7827 carries is, undeniably, incorrect for pre-1968.

Why do I think that the LT Corporate livery is authentic? Simple - LT bought the ex-GW Panniers as useful locomotives for shunting and engineering operations, not to bring in the tourists. The engines were working for their living because they were useful - not because people enjoyed travelling behind them. LT were not trying to evoke the days of steam on BR.

The line is fuzzy, and impossible to specify with total clarity. I don't pretend that my interpretation of that line is right and everyone else's wrong.

Incidentally I should point out that I have no objections to the current livery of 7827. However, as an enthusiast with an interest in the railways of old, I look forward to seeing 7827 carry a livery that it once carried whilst in BR service.

 

That is good news and hopefully more enthusiasts will visit if the railway starts to recognise its' history a bit more. It is a great line with some fantastic banks, heavy trains and lovely scenery but has lacked authenticity. I believe the railway can benefit from the enthusiast market as it can support the non-peak weeks via special events as at other lines in tourist areas such as the West Somerset, NYMR, South Devon and NNR.

Any chance of turning the Mark 1s out in a more authenthic version of chocolate and cream and perhaps rebuilding Britannia Halt?

I look forward to the new approach!

 

The Kingswear branch (I can't keep up with the ever-changing name of the line) is a great railway, and will be even better with this move towards authenticity. Most people's steam memories are of BR livery; you need to be at least 65 to have seen and registered in your brain a GWR livery in normal service.

 

Yes it is. It's a shame that it's run how it is because with a bit of volunteer effort I'm sure it would be one of the best in the country. It lacks the natural charm that you get from a place that has some volunteer-led TLC. Anyway a Manor in BR Black will look very nice.

 

Out of interest, what sort of numbers utilise the DSR (as it is now) annually? Inclusive and exclusive of Bus and Boat trips? It doesn't seem to be a well publicised figure, but I imagine it is very high.

 

Brilliant news, and although I appreciate how the line is very much run as a tourist based business, it is welcome to see a nod towards the enthusiast market. I wonder whether there may be the opportunity to hire out the loco out of the PDSR's running season to other railways? It would provide a 'bonus' revenue stream for the PDSR and the loco is bound to be sought after in authentic BR lined black.

 

A very interesting development - it gets my vote as I'm all for authenticity, as Mr Hillingdon can confirm! As it's my local railway, I hope to see the Manor in action and take my family for a ride too.

Incidentally, is there any other UK heritage railway that has changed its name as often as this one?
Dart Valley Railway : Torbay Steam Railway : Paignton & Dartmouth Steam Railway : Dartmouth Steam Railway & Riverboat Company

John.