Permitted Speeds for Steam Locomotives

Salty was probably relating to the fact that fingers are unlikely to be wrapped unless speed exceeds 10% of the maximum. Unlikely is the key word, though. A bit like exceeding the road speed limit. It's still not allowed.

 

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Record breaking hill climbing doesnt tend to break any speed limits, im not qualified to say who the wrong hands might be, but have always assumed that more often than not an owners representative is riding on the footplate with enough know how and authority to intercede , via the traction inspector.
Increasing coasting speed or even 'run up' speed is likely (unfortunately some might say) to lessen the need for full out hill climbing unless its something all concerned want to do...

 

If anything I said in my post is wrong, then I'm quite happy to stand corrected.
I didn't say anything in my post was a fact, just what I believed was right.
To come on here and say that its "a piece of absolute ******" without correcting what I said isn't very nice.
It may have escaped your notice, but I'm no longer involved with any railway organisation and when I come on here I speak as a private individual and not as a member of any organisation.

 

Just to throw a little fuel on to this fire. It appears that there are plans for an event in Germany for a special celebratory steam run with the intention of achieving speeds in excess of 100mph and so setting the record for the highest speed attained by steam traction in C21. If this is true then -----------okay, where is 60009 when you need it.

 

It wasn't meant to be unkind, just to the point.
It wouldn't really look very good if someone from network rail were to look on this forum who didn't really know any better and see a qoute from someone basically saying that steam loco speedos read anything up to 12% inaccurate! If this were the case how would temporary and permenant speed restrictions be observed correctly by a driver? It could bring a whole lot of very serious questions that aren't necessary.

 

This may seem a daft question, but road cars have a 10% allowance on speedos so they read 10% faster than what is the actual speed of the vehicle. Are the speedos fitted to any railway locomotives (not just steam) subject to similar caliberation?

 

As I understand it, a car is road-legal if its speedo reads within a 10% error range. ie It won't fail its MOT.

However, that does NOT translate into an equivalent ruling on speeding - you can be booked and prosecuted for doing 75 on a motorway. It's your job to know what speed you're actually doing, and whether or not your speedo is inaccurate. Even if your speedo underreads by 10%, you are still committing an offence.

Relevance to this thread? Probably none.......

 

Apart from the speedo not being a MoT testable item, all that is true: the law is that you don't exceed the speed limt, not that your speedo doesn't read over it.

I'm open to correction on this, but I believe the tolerance with a loco's speedo is +/- 2mph throughout the range.

 

Also a car wheel has several inches of pneumatic tyre, subject to at least plus/ minus an inch depending on inflation versus a say 20 inch overall diameter, thats plus/minus 5% variation straight off
a loco tyre worn down by two inches on a 72 inch diameter wheel would be a similar scale of error but this accrues much more slowly and predictably ie the loco speedo is always likely to read faster than the loco is going (if it is an accurate instument correctly calibtrated in the first instance)...

 

I thought some Mk1's and indeed Mk2's were cleared for the ton ? depending on bogie type fitted unless im mistaken ?, certainly Deltic hauled tours of Mk1 stock have hit triple figures in the past.

 

MK1's with the 'Commonwealth' design of bogie and the later, Swindon-built 'B4' bogie were cleared for 100mph

 

That's a nice little can of worms. The driver is responsible for the safe operation of the train. Period. There is no mention of "owner's reps" in the rule book. Who has certified them as competent, and against what standard? If we are totally honest, some are very knowledgeable, but some have very little knowledge, and are frankly a danger to their own locos.

If we want to talk about speeds, firstly look at page 10 here http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule Book Modules/TW - Train Working/GERT8000-TW3 Iss 2.pdf

Understand what you are allowed to do.

Regarding speedos - an allowance of approx 3 mph will be given for error. That is not the same thing as saying that their is a flexibility in the permitted speed. There simply is not, and remember that modern otmr systems can show both indicated and wheel speed.

 

Speaking with a railwayman a couple of weeks ago, there are enough freight trains being dragged around with wheel flats that would surely do far more damage to the tracks than a steam loco going a few mph quicker than currently allowed. At the end of the day large pacifics are designed for 80-90mph running and were used to doing it regularly, they shouldn't thrash themselves to bits, especially when they are arguably maintained in better condition now than in BR days. I wouldn't argue for a raising of the 75mph limit as then trains would be timed at 75mph (as opposed to 60mph at present) which would mean steam locos being forced to work very hard and would increase wear. However, before OTMR there was some flexibility on the speed limit (unofficial or otherwise) when 75mph was exceeded when observing the limit would have meant holding up service trains or running significantly late. No doubt we've all travelled on trains when this has happened, however since OTMR this has all but disappeared in my experience. Being able to run up to 90mph officially in these circumstances would seriously help steam's cause on the mainline without the driver fearing trouble if his data recorder was checked. As for smaller locos, I can not understand why Black 5's aren't cleared for 75mph. I travelled a big chunk of the West Coast at 75mph behind 45305 a few years ago and she was more than capable. At that time the owners were looking to gain official clearance at that speed and at the time I thought she was signed off, but it appears it never happened. I know Ian Riley doesn't wish his locos to operate above the current limit but I believe 45231 was also looking to run at 75mph at one time time. I don't know about 44932, however their ability as substitute locos would only be enhanced if they were able to run at a more realistic speed.
Additionally we have Deltics, a Western and class 40's running around the network at 90mph plus that are a similar age to some of our steam locos. There isn't cries of not protecting our museum pieces there, just much easier pathing opportunites.

 

Tiny bit O/T, apart from 60009's support coach, are there any Mk1s left on the network with the pre-commonwealth bogie?

 

Don't forget NR's 31s!