46233 Duchess of Sutherland.

...any suggestions on how to prevent an individual making more than one vote by phoning multiple times from different telephone numbers?

Open internet polls can often be fooled by simply clearing cookies, or else access via proxy servers so votes are sourced from multiple IP addresses. If users have to register first before voting then they can create infinate free online email addresses to register multiple accounts so they can then make multiple votes etc. etc.

 

Hear hear. Totally with you on that Jamie.

 

But to be equally blunt, who said a 12-month alternative livery exercise was wanted in the first place?

If those prepared to have a say in matters don't want it...

 

As a videograher (is there such a word?) I prefer liveries that stand out a little in less-than-ideal weather, e.g. apple green, garter blue, malachite, Stroudley "improved engine green", crimson lake for locomotives; blood & custard or chocolate & cream for coaches. Therefore, I'll be voting for BR Blue for the Duchess, as much as anything to help a little towards the restoration costs. Also, the "collector" in me likes variety.

The "poll" is what it is - a fund raiser, a way of keeping us talking about the loco while she's off the mainline, and a bit of fun. This loco has provoked rather more livery debate than most, partly because of a few vociferous advocates of BR green in the railway press who, IMHO, take things just a little too personally. I rather admire the PRCLT for using this to their advantage.

On the one hand, we shouldn't imagine a conspiracy behind the inclusion of LMS red in the choices (I like the explanation given by Kempenfelt 82e in post #131), but nor should we pretend that it's a fair and objective measure of enthusiasts' opinions (I. Cooper vs. S.A.C. Martin etc.). It's a measure of who is prepared to bid the highest sum for their preference. One donation of £100 (modest enough, in loco fund-raising terms) could make a huge difference to the outcome.

 

Then you are in fact suggesting...!

Democracy at work? Nah.

 

Then in no uncertain terms can it be called a democratic vote: people's votes are not all equal as a result.

It is neither fair nor objective when it ceases to be democratic, and that is why my cynicism for this poll is rising steadily every week. I. Cooper has effectively confirmed in his statement that no such livery change was wanted by the PRCLT: are we to take it then, that this is essentially a fund-raising exercise, with the decision on livery already taken?

There would not be half as much froth and bile spilled over livery debates if all parties were prepared to compromise on time for each other's preferences. That is why, given the knowledge that LMS livery would be returned to after 12 months in any event: it should not have been a choice in the poll in the first place.

 

It seems like a fairly cunning way to raise money, but it does appear most likely to be a stitch-up with some wealthy contributor scuppering what I suspect is the majorities desire to take the opportunity for a change. It certainly seems to be the case, the way LMS Red suddenly jumps up the league table, while the other livery votes show a much steadier climb. A slight shame if this is the case, as it means people will lose trust in this as a way to raise money towards the overhaul (not only for 6233, but potentially for other locos that might've used this strategy).

 

I. Cooper would like to make it clear that he has no connection with the "Princess Royal Class Locomotive Trust", to the best of his knowledge does not know anybody who does have connections with the Trust, and he does not know what the wishes of the PRCLT are regarding livery, or their motives for running the poll.

I still can't understand why so many people seem to think loco owners should pander to their own personal opinions about livery when it's none of their business. But hey, it keeps magazine journalists busy and internet forums active.

 

Owners can paint their locomotives in whatever colours they please.

But in this specific case, they have actively asked for votes on a set of liveries the locomotive may wear. That there is some doubt, shared by a few members here, as to the authenticity of the voting process, which has been described as "democratic" and in equal measure found wanting in terms of its setup (see the above note by Sidmouth), is very relevant here.

In short: locomotive owners can paint their engine any livery they please, but when they get the general public involved, that is a different kettle of fish; they have certain duties of care to those who put their vote in, honestly, towards the respective liveries.

 

Why - because I find it hilarious the fuss and attention people seem to make about liveries? How liveries apparently must be changed and varied etc. Just where exactly do a locomotive's owner(s) wishes and preferences fit into all these internet pontifications?

PRCLT have provided a way (at a price) for third parties to influence the livery for 12 months. That's infinately more than they needed to do.


I'm sorry to disillusion you, but my posts exist in one thread of one internet forum. To suggest they are read by anything other than a very small proportion of the total number of people in the UK who have more than a passing interest in preservation is a little unrealistic. There are just short of 3500 registered members on this forum, and even if there are an equal number of unregistered regular observers then that's still a pretty small proportion. To suggest my posts are going to do anything what-so-ever to the 'goodwill' shown towards the PRCLT by the entire group of people they appeal to is totally laughable!! :lol:

 

If 'we the undersigned' are so determined to have a livery change then the smart way would be to run a seperate 'pay as you poll' featuring every option other than crimson lake on the understanding that winner takes all and hope that this would be sufficient to fund the painting on its own as the PRCLT is indicating that it would be willing to allow this

I am not so cynical as to suggest that this is the case, but: the present system allows contribution to the restoration (again, not a bad thing) with no change of outcome in prospect as long as someone, within or without the prclt, is prepared to match the votes pound for pound
Outcome - no additional repaint ( money saved) and funding and publicity created in the meantime.

I thinks its fair to trust that if there were a few thousand pounds behind one particular alternative colour then that would go ahead...
personally any colour is fine.

 

I suppose it depends on who a particular owner wishes to influence in terms of attracting either donations, volunteers or future business as to how much notice they take of a particular interest group's opinions. This will change over time, depending on the owner's circumstances and the point in the locomotive's life-cycle.

On the one hand, livery debates can be a distraction from the real business of restoring and running a steam loco, and can cause a disproportionate amount of argument and ill-feeling if they get out of hand. This is a bad thing, especially when it happens within a small team of volunteers and/or supporters. On the other hand, shrewd choice of livery can bring in large amounts of free publicity and good will, as I think Didcot have found with their choice of BR Blue for 6023.

The 38xx that was recently painted black is another interesting case. Just at the moment, she is something of a star attraction. The audience may be a bit limited, and the novelty will wear off in a few months, but that's no reason not to take advantage of the opportunity. Now, the choices facing 6233's owners may be different, but many loco owners have found pragmatic advantages in responding positively to suggestions about liveries. That's not too hard to understand, is it?

 

So long as the organiser of the poll has been open about the conditions/rules under which it is being run, I honestly don't see what the fuss is all about. If people aren't happy with the implications or possibilities then simply don't take part!

The way our Government is voted into office is via a 'single vote' system, and supposedly free from monetry influence, but that is far from being truly democratic either.

 

I can see why they wouldn't want it painted green. Its bad enough that all the ideas that made it such a masterpiece were created in Swindon, it would be awful to paint it the same colour as a Swindon product too!

I don't think there is a conspiracy going on, but now its up to the 'paint it green brigade' me included to try and make it happen.

 

Indeed if a loco owner chooses to alter the livery of their property for pragmatic reasons then all power to them.

However where I do have a problem is with those train spotters who feel loco owners have a duty to alter liveries, and any owner not interested in doing so is somehow foolish by definition.

 

I do have to laugh at these allegations that "more people want it red than any other colour" and those who made a fuss about the livery in the past apparently can't put their money where their mouths are. If people can stand back for a moment and properly look at this poll, there have been a mere 700 votes for LMS Crimson Lake, whereas there have been a total of 1200 votes for a livery other than Crimson, though it seems that this has escaped the minds of certain posters as those 1200 votes have been spread across the other livery choices.
While yes I agree that this poll is looking more and more suspicious every week, there are still 500 more votes for a livery other than LMS Crimson Lake.

 

Or we have another option. There does happen to be a green duchess sitting about................... Ill get my coat.

 

Let's not lose sight of two important facts:

1) All the votes lead to money being donated to helping finance the overhaul of 6233. A working Duchess in any colour is more important than a static one in BR Green/Blue/Crimson Lake.

2) If you want to see the locomotive in anything other than Crimson Lake pick up the phone and vote. It's hardly breaking the bank to vote for £1.50 a time regardless of your income. The more times you vote the more money you raise for the overhaul of the locomotive.

It's only a coat of paint - it shouldn't be the subject of an ethical debate regarding the PRLCT's actions.