46233 Duchess of Sutherland.

No one is denying that fact in any way.

I take issue with that. Even if I voted ten times or more on my limited budget, a cheque can go in the post for X amount and get Y amount of votes. The livery poll was to decide what livery to paint it in after twelve months, and that the livery would definitely be changed after 12 months. So are we to take it, LMS Crimson Lake livery will be applied once, and then a second time after twelve months?

Might I suggest that it wouldn't be subject to such a debate, if the poll itself was literally based on "first past the post" with one voter equaling one vote? As opposed that we have, where if your pockets are deep enough, you can pay for the choice of paint job on your own...

 

You're working on the assumption that because you have voted, your choice is the one that has to win. If someone out votes you 10 to 1 that's fair. That's just life I'm afraid Simon. What you need to do is get other people who also share the same opinion to vote with your choice and then you can outvote your opponents. That's how democracy works.

But the whole idea of the poll is to raise money for the overhaul while also giving those who vote something tangible. Allowing only 1 vote per person would be too complicated to set up and would restrict the amount of money that could be raised. The PRLCT have been very clever to tap into a passionate debate to raise money for their engine.

 

Neil, you have completely misread my posts.

If it was first past the post - one person to one vote - then I am sure the results would be very interesting.

For the record, I voted for blue, and no, I can't see that winning whether it was first past the post or the current system!

It's by no means complicated to restrict a telephone voting system to one vote for each telephone. Granted, someone, somewhere, will try and phone from as many different phonelines as possible (!!!) but it stops the current system where one person can simply send a cheque for X amount and get X number of votes with it.

Yes, they have been very clever - but I wonder if this will backfire on them significantly before the year is out.

And that is where I will leave it.

 

How much does a decent paint job cost?

Must be about £10,000 minimum......

So if the trust raise say £3,000 to paint it another colour via this x-factor style voting system its a waste of time as you would need at least a dozen charter days to break even on the repaint costs ............and I cant see the society doing that

Now I know that there is a vote and people stick hands in pockets for a colour they want.......but..........the bottom line is that on these economics the society should hand back the cash to the voters and paint it red anyway

 

You can probably paint the entire locomotive with no more than five tins of Williamsons; its the varnishing that makes or breaks a livery change. In the grand scheme of things, the paint is relatively inexpensive, so I don't see what the problem is with changing the livery now and again. It just seems to be the case that one set of livery dogma is frequently set against the other without anything in the way of compromise. Remember the intense interest surrounding the 'Dukedog' at SSS2? And I seem to recall the Bluebell stating that it would be repainted GWR green within months of it returning to that railway. Here we are three years later, and its still black, and still a popular locomotive. Painting it from green to black wasn't the end of the world (although there was some fluff over the hand-painted buffer-beam number), and raised the profile of the locomotive for a time. It also seems to have travelled to other railways a lot more since the livery change than before it. And please remember, enthusiasts are just as important as anyone else, for if it wasn't for the original alliance between the 'trainspotter' fraternity and former enginemen not wishing to see steam die back in the '60s, then we wouldn't be having this livery debate at all.

 

Err I don't think so, unless you live in a banana republic. It is illegal to vote more than once in any democratic election in the UK. You cannot just buy yourself another 10 or 100 votes.

It is highly questionable whether enticing people to pay to vote even in something as trivial as a livery poll is ethical, when the outcome can be rigged by wealthier parties with vested interests in a particular result. I would vote for BR Blue. but I won't as I think there is little chance of anything other than red winning.

 

Well it's a version of democracy.

The disappointing thing about this is that the PRLCT have given people the option to choose how a big, well-known engine gets painted and all people can do on this forum is moan about it how it 'isn't fair'.

A sad state of affairs.

 

Reneging slightly on my exit earlier, I just had to respond to this:

I am at a loss for words at that statement. In no way could that you describe, be in any way democratic, if a majority of people lose out to a few people with more votes!

The facts we have to hand:

1. The PRCLT starts a telephone for picking the livery of its engine.

- You can vote more than once on any telephone line, and the vote will count.
- You can also, instead of voting by telephone, send in a cheque and multiples of votes will be applied to said livery choice in proportion to the money given.
- The telephone vote poll is in no way indicative of a "majority" of people, therefore, so the number of people actually voting in the poll is actually irrelevant.
- Since the general public has been asked to vote, the PRCLT has to some extent given their "right" to paint the engine any colour they like, to the general public.

However...

2. The Trust have stated that the engine will be repainted into LMS Crimson Lake, in a minimum of twelve months after its overhaul, anyway.

- But Crimson Lake is also an option in the poll.
- In the last week, Crimson Lake has jumped the best part of 200 votes, ahead of the early leader, BR Green.

So, the question is: is that down to 200 separate people voting for the LMS livery (which would be fair enough) or one person who has dipped into their pockets to keep LMS at the top of the list?

I would be extremely interested to see how many different people have actually voted in the poll. It might confirm a few things about the poll to me: then again it could also prove there are 700 odd people willing to see LMS livery straight off the bat.

^This exactly. Sheff's hit the nail on the head. The problem is not so much the popularity of any of the liveries, but the idea that the outcome can more or less be guaranteed by the way the poll has been set up in the first place.

 

The solution is not to vote if it upsets you so much and take no further interest until the engine is running again.

However don't lose sight that this is a fundraising exercise. The colour of the locomotive is hardly important, getting it back running again is. If the wealthy want to plough their money into having it back into Crimson Lake then that's their perogative - at least it'll raise money to help with the overhaul.

A few people seem to think that the PRLCT are electing a government or a world president. I bet more people get more worked up over how the PRLCT run their livery poll then are taking an interest in the AV referendum.

Frankly I don't understand all the fuss. If the engine goes back into Crimson Lake because one person decided to spend £100,000 on the poll to rig then who really cares? At least your £1.50 has gone into helping make it steam again, a point which seems almost irrelevant to most people.

 

Why? If someone wanted to spend £700 to vote for 6233 going back into Crimson Lake isn't that their business and not yours?

I find it strange how people who might spend some money voting on the livery poll more than once, helping to put more money in the overhaul bank account, are having their motives questioned - as if helping fund the overhaul is a bad thing.

 

Then I must ask - why bother with the poll in the first place?

Overall I think you've missed the point Neil. No one has any qualms about the money going to the engine's overhaul: just the manner in which it is collected on the basis of a poll which you yourself seem to think has the high possibility of being rigged.

EDIT: and just for the record - I'm voting no to AV - goodness knows what the livery debate would be like if the PRCLT had done this on the AV system...!!!!!

 

No doubt that the poll can be rigged, I just don't see why that's a bad thing when you look at why the poll exists in the first place.

 

Obviously blue engine with yellow smoke deflectors, a red tender, and one green buffer - oh no sorry, that's under the present system

Dave

 

Interesting that the comparison with the national AV referendum has crept into this debate! Don't forget that the referendum is costing the country millions, at a time it can least afford it and let's face it - how many people are really that bothered? Personally, I'm much more interested in 6233 and its livery(s) which is why I'm reading this strand and I'd like to bet most other people reading this feel the same if the truth be known.

It is no doubt a successful way of raising money towards the restoration of a high profile locomotive - nothing wrong with that. On the other hand if you think the livery issue / costs are, so far as the poll is concerned, what this is all about then it does raise a few issues. Personally, I'm not sure why crimson lake was an option in the first place, given that the intention is to revert to this livery after 12 months. I would also question the publicised weekly update which makes it a lot easier for anyone so inclined to up their voting accordingly. It might have been better to keep it secret until the end but that would probably have resulted in far fewer votes being cast and therefore less revenue.

 

The mistake is to think of it as "poll" or "vote" - bad choice of name by PRCLT? It is neither an opinion poll, nor an election. It's a fund-raiser, somewhere between an auction and a race: which of the four alternatives can raise the most money by a certain date? If we accept it in those terms, we can choose whether to participate or not.

"Vote early and vote often" - now, where have I heard that before?

 

^^^^ That's exactly the issue. I can't see anyone having an issue with a plea for funds by the PRCL, but it's the way it was dressed up as a poll which you could influence with your vote, whereas the perception is that the outcome may be well have been decided before the event. i.e. PRCL or their supporters only have to prop up the Red option up to the original cost of the re-paint to overwhelm all the other votes, and reap the bonus of the cost of those other votes. I hope this isn't the case, but it's looking that way, and if so it doesn't seem an ethical way to raise funds to me.

 

Why vote Crimson Lake when its going LMS anyway :/

 

Curious Alberta - that's not what my email notification says ...... . Think you had it right first time!

 

Agree with your first version Alberta

 

Anyway, how about writing and telling them your view. I am doing. Clearly their poll shows an overall desire for change, but the outcome will be no change. However, that's the result of first-past-the-post voting. Hope you all voted yes to AV today, I imagine if AV were in operation here it'd end up blue or green, as "most" people seem to want

Their contact email is westshed6233@btconnect.com