Don't Mention the War

Those stars of "how not to do it" have struck again!

The East Lancs Railway has banned all axis uniforms from its property for the forthcoming 40s weekend.

I wait with interest to see how the battles of Heywood, Ramsbottom and Regensburg (Rawtenstall axisised for the weekend) go on, with only one side taking part! :yield:

 

It gets silly, they can appear in Spielberg movies but not in real life...

Perhaps' gerry' have gone all undercover, the sneaky blighters and are in civies/ allied uniforms...
oh well, the Il Duce costume goes back in the wardrobe yet again...

 

The trick is knowing where to draw the line, this seems a fairly extreme decision. Personally, I don't mind seeing Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine re-enactors, but I do feel uncomfortable with SS.

I've met some of the SS re-enactors too, and it has done nothing to reassure me.

 

I can't help feeling that anyone who would be upset/offended by axis uniforms would not visit a WW2 themed event anyway?

 

This true to a degree, in that I won't visit lines where Axis uniformed re-enactors are present. I am, however willing to visit where there is a 'Home Front' theme.

Personally, I think it's about time that we British stopped thinking about 'glorious wars' past and started to pull ourselves into the present rather reduced circumstances.

Regards

 

Certainly Home Front event days are better and I think promote the right sort of atmosphere. Although at the same time the diluting of history shouldn't go too far - you can't deny it happened. I think one railway I went to had a "training demonstration" rather than a battle against Germans.

 

A problem that railways face is the unannounced re-enactors who turn up. Plenty of re-enactors, not officially booked in, turn up for the day (and pay their way unlike those there 'officially') and some of these are in Axis uniforms. It is hard to stop them turning up.

 

they could shoot the feckers...how real would that be!

 

It's commonly known that some towns in the north west have a reputation of anti-foreigner behaviour in some towns close to Bury.

My wife just read that notice, which didnt explain "as an important part of our local community we have no wish to cause any offence or upset to any of our visitors" what the offence would be ?
and felt the same as I do, rightly or wrongly came to a conclusion and she asked..

would she be safe from the other visitors as she has an eastern european accent ? - what about visitors from Germany.. are they safe ?

A wartime weekend is exactly that and everyone knows what to expect.. but my reading of a war time weekend in a northern town welcoming only British costume could be mis-read as being a bit "Nationalist" perhaps ?

I think a bit more cultural sensitivity would be appreciated, especially as families from overseas in the UK dont read the stories in railway magazines. Put another way Air Show's have no problems with foreign WW2 aircraft, or even retired Luftwaffe personnel attending.

thats my opinion / thoughts anyway.
Either way.. my wife said no.. we cannot go.

 

Thank goodness we don't get such nonsense at airshows where the Hun is regularly driven from the sky.

 

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. In your eagerness to point out a failing of the ELR you have failed to read the notice correctly. The ban relates to Officers uniforms and not all German/Axis uniforms. Mind you why let the facts get in the way of an anti ELR post.

 

TBirdFrank and an anti-ELR quote?? Whatever next. Is the Pope a Catholic??

 

According to an article in todays Telegraph the ELR was lobbied by Jewish organisations in Manchester as a result of individuals turning up last year in SS attire.

 

Hello all,

I have to admit that 1940s events* in the UK are one of the phenomena I, as a German, look at with some disbelief. I can understand the wish to portray one's own history, but why would someone voluntarily wear axis uniforms, especially German uniforms? They stand for unbelievable cruelty, so why? A slight sympathy with the ideology perhaps?

Historically, axis uniforms in Britain are not correct. As we all know Britain was never invaded and to my knowledge the only members of the German army on British ground were those whose planes were shot down. So German officers on a British train just don't look right. German airmen in chains might do.

All Nazi symbols are banned in Germany for good reasons. I felt rather uncomfortable to see reenactors in black SS-uniforms with polished boots at an ELR war event a few years ago.

I welcome the decision of the ELR and would welcome other railways to follow.

Kind regards

Christoph


* The expression "1940s event" without the "wartime" added is a nice euphemism, isn't it? I am not aware of many events which are set in, say 1947....

 

I must say that I agree with Cristoph. By all means have a 1940's themed event with recreations of life as it was then, however that does mean that we do not have axis forces wandering around the event. We were not invaded and I do not even feel comfortable with turning parts of our countryside into 'occupied Europe' for an event, after all our trains never ran through occupied lands!

Lets recreate history in an authentic way and, other than Actors in a Play on the stage or T.V,. I also share concerns as to those who wish to wander around this country in Nazi uniforms.

One last point Christoph, may I congratulate you on your written English. It is excellent. I only wish my German and French were as good.

 

I think that 40s events are in the main always going to have an Axis presence, because the majority of the general public seem particularly taken with watching the battle, and may not bother turning up without it. It would be churlish to tell Axis re-enactors to only turn up to the battle considering the effort that they undeniably go to to turn up.

However, sticking to a home front theme is certainly a more reasonable/authentic experience - although let's be honest, the whole thing is one big rose-tinted nostalgia trip.

 

Britain may not have been invaded, but if Rawtenstall is renamed Regensburg for the event, one assumes it's set on the continent! I suppose it depends whether you're going for an accurate recreation of a railway during WW2, or a day out for the family. If it's the former, I suppose what you want is a couple of very full, very late and filthy trains running up and down the line, with little actual wartime presence other than the odd sounding of an air raid siren, at which point everyone stays in the shelter and hopes that their home is still in one piece afterwards. Afterwards, a very small and not very tasty lunch and back to work... I'm not sure that I'd want to visit such an event!

As for 'a slight sympathy with the ideology', I'm not sure. Politics have moved a long way since the 1940s in ALL of the concerned countries. I doubt very much that those wearing American uniforms support the treatment of black Americans as second class citizens, yet it was part of the political culture of America in the 40s. They may not have been slaughtered in death camps, but glass houses etc. Homosexuality was illegal in England and Wales until 1967, I'm sure those in British uniforms wouldn't support the banning of such acts. There's a time and a place for in-depth discussion of political culture, and this forum isn't it, but my point is that all countries have evolved in the past 70 years, and none would be comfortable with its respective 1940s politics applied today! There will always be an element of those who want to parade up and down in a fancy uniform, some of whom will of course have certain inappropriate views, but I doubt this is a large number.

Whilst on holiday in Prague some years back I visited the museum of Communism. This included a large selection of Soviet uniforms etc; Stalin is believed to have purged and killed over 18,000,000 people, yet I didn't hear anybody complaining about the display of Soviet uniforms... Whilst I sympathise with the members of these Jewish groups who may have lost friends and family at the time, I can't help wondering how many (if any) have actually visited the event in the past? I should imagine that, had I lost friends or family in such an event, I would not be keen to visit any event centered around such a period in history, regardless of the appearance or otherwise of axis uniforms. I would imagine that attempting to prevent such incidents happening again would be more important than trying to 'clean the history books' however! I haven't visited the ELR war weekend personally, but, assuming it's much like those which I have been to on other lines, there will be a good balance between having an enjoyable day out without making too much light of dark times. Assuming we're not talking about class 2 cattle trains running to Auschwitz Bolton Street and returning ECS, etc, it does seem an overreaction!

That said, from the ELR's point of view it's a tough decision. If they're known to have been lobbied by these Jewish groups, one can easily see how it would only take a few minutes for the press to come up with some 'Nazi-sympathising trainspotters ignore holocaust-victims' heartfelt requests' type headlines! They do say that there's no such thing as bad publicity, but I'm not sure that they're right! :lol:

 

Former Luftwaffe pilots are welcomed with open arms on the airshow circuit.

 

The fact is that these weekends are part of the revenue plan of our preserved railways, that to attract the crowds there must be shootouts, and that these - by definition need an enemy presence.

The ELR is trying to face both ways at once, and if it wants to be left alone to play at Dad's army, should have told the pressure group to go away, or ask them about what has been going on in Gaza and the Left Bank for the last forty five years. If those who can't see how to run a business regard my comments as anti ELR - so be it. I can see how to run a business, so do those who scheduled this event. Its the PR people who have lost the plot

SS types excepted, there really is no need for this type of nonsense. The suggestion of a Home Guard weekend is noted - but there's not a lot of glamour (or ticket sales) in digging spuds and carrying wooden rifles - is there.

Let the lads have a bit of fun - and tell the compulsive "victims" to get a life and take the wider view! Freedoms were hard won and I, for one, will stand up and say so when I see them being shackled - especially in such a silly way as this!

 

It'll be interesting to see how it works out; sadly, my prediction, as per Frank's (though perhaps put more tactfully :lol is that the answer will be 'not very well', but let's give it a chance? As I said above, the points about Britain not having a German presence are true, but as with all events on preserved railways the key is bringing people through the door. If the ELR were to run a 100% authentic 1940s event there'd be no mk1s, no 60s era posters on the stations, no diesels in sidings, very limited catering, etc. What the public want (for better or worse) is a war film portrayed live!