BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Yes, it is a similar arrangement.

 

Actually I beg to differ. The cylinders fitted to the 9Fs were different to those fitted to the Brits/Clans. Although cardinal dimensions such as stoke/bore/offsets are similar they were spaced (3/4", I think) further from the frame plates. This, of course, influenced the spacing of the exhaust port apertures through the frames. I did compare the drawings and concluded it would be possible (albeit messy) to make an adaptable pattern-set capable of making a cylinder that would work OK for all three classes.

Over to Tony Dance.

 

Thanks for the clarification, which raises the question of how they fitted the loading gauge when the Brits had to employ narrow frames to do so....

Foxy

 

Your thoughts are incorrect. The frames were based on Bulleid's design for the Merchant Navy Class. The main idea being that the vertical centreline of the axleboxes would be directly below the frames. The cylinders were designed to suit the frames.

 

Thought id covered this one foxy. The width over cylinders at 'Platform' height is very similar for both locos. The Cylinders are higher up on the 9f to give this clearance. The Max width over cylinders of the 9f is wider at the cylnders for getting on an inch and a half...End on drawings are in the 'locos in Profile books' and also in less detail but with dimensions in the Cox book (standard steam locomotives)...
Ps
Standard Tank, do you have the Drawing ref no's (sl/d...) to hand for the Brittania Spring hanger castings you spoke about earlier ?
Ta.

 

Now that is potentially v interesting...though theres more than enough 9f Cylinders out there doing nothing to make a pattern suitable for all classes particularly desireable.
And now for something completely different...
Does any one know if the STD 5 Caprotti Cylinder is a 'lined' or just a one piece casting, and is there enough ' body' in the cylinder block
pattern to bore it a tad wider... ?

 

OK, thanks for the clarification, fascinating stuff!

Foxy

 

Cylinder is lined.
PM sent.

 

Here is a radical question which keeps cropping up, why not build a 'proper' Clan, as in one that was broken up by BR, such as 72009 'Clan Stewart'

What do folk think of that idea at this stage of the build project?

 

I can't say I like the idea, and the reasoning behind that is simple. It becomes a replica - not next in line, no individual identity, it is simply a replica of a locomotive.

The reason Tornado has done so well is, I am convinced, the way it was set up as "the next in line" from the originals, taking the next number, having its own name, unique style and take on doing things.

Hengist should stay Hengist - it is its unique selling point, it will become the 11th member of the Standard 6MT, and is therefore not resigned to being a simple replica. You therefore have more room for maneuver on how the locomotive develops, being able to improve upon the design whilst keeping the essence of the original.

I am not saying that I personally devalue replicas of locomotives (I am in awe of the broad gauge Firefly), but I do think "the next in line", a "new build 6MT" has so much more mystique to it, that enthusiasts would go for it more.

Tornado's success pretty much underlines the value of a strong, determined ethos and brand name, in some respects.

 

^ agreed. I believe the new Std 6 should incorporate any mods which will improve it's performance and relaibility. Therefore it will not be a true replica and should have its own identity, as per Tornado. Good luck with the project!

 

Daft question. It cannot, now, be done. The frames have been drilled for the spring bracket/cross stay castings. You cannot go backwards on that one. One part I would seriously have a look at is the cast rear dragbox. The cost differential between making this and fabricating an original Clan dragbox must be enormous.

 

'You cannot go backwards on that one'
Can you not ?
As for the dragbox and also the rear truck...i would hope that your right there.

Im all for this project being called 'the Clan', or 'the Standard 6'

I dont have a problem with Hengist as a name, indeed everything about the project so far has payed proper attention to the historical perspective 'lot 242' and all that, but is that helping the project ? At the end of the day if the Clan Farquarson society of america want it to be 72027 Clan Farquarson and will stump up 6 figures then the reality of the situation is it would be stupid to say no.
Tornado was given to 60163 in a similar fashion, not out of character for an A1 though and better than replicating an existing name.

Im sure ive said before that the direction of the Project should perhaps look beyond lot 242,

How radical do you want it ?
BR 1F Tender -makes perfect sense...
Caprotti Gear ? - as many reasons for as for against i feel
Buyng a 9F, cut and shut the frames and build a 4-8-0 ? ... time to take me pills.

 

Are you on Facebook for the instant chat function.
I would say stick with Hengist. Although I understand that your seeking new members and a change of name would show that your under new management as the saying goes. I think the biggest thing for you now would be to get something produced quickly. No matter what it is something small. To show your going to get it built and restore peoples faith in the project.

So have you got a new home for the project yet. How are things going.

 

Rather than necessarily adding Caprotti and similar additions, like Tornado some degree of making the locomotive steam better (improved draughting, streamlining of steam passages), improved lubrication, improved sanding (Tornado now has the same type as on the class 66s I believe?) and similar.

In short, building the next Clan in line, with all the advantages of that available to you in the modern day.

I think what the Hengist project needs more than anything is added impetus in the form of a concerted effort to get a particular component finished which will give the best impression for the intention to finish the project. In a little under two years, the National Memorial engine has its frames, driving wheels, tender frames, and many other components besides ready, and will look a great deal more finished aesthetically than Hengist.

In short, the project needs good PR by balancing the need for certain components against those that will push the overall desirability of the project to the enthusiast it is aimed at.

 

Whether you like it or not, the A1 Trust concentrated on getting the cash flow sorted first and even then it took a good fifteen years of construction. Without constant funding progress will falter and impetus will be lost, members become disillusioned and the downward spiral commences. The opposite is also true, with good funding you get a virtuous circle in which progress begets cash which begets more progress which encourages new members, etc., I don't know what the magic secret is but you have to capture people's imagination. I have sunk enough money into new builds over the last fifteen years and should know better! (and, no, I ain't going to tell you which ones...)

Foxy

 

BRCaprotti was the BR valve gear of choice post 71000 - Unfortunately not much else was built post 71000(Standard 5's, 9f's)- so its not an add on im plucking out of thin air.

Tornado steams pretty well ( as well as the original A1's ) and hopefully better with the ongoing draughting tweaks. The clan has potentially more that can be done draught/ ejector wise but improvement in this area is a tweak. Whether the Clan has half the bells and whistles that Tornado has will very much depend on what her role is to be -mainline was off the agenda, maybe it should be back on ?
But your conclusion is right and the concensus on priorities is likely to be
1) A home
2) Assemble frames
3) Wheels
4) Cylinders
5) -It now looks like something you could stick a boiler on and it would be almost Finished-
Then we can start having the debates about the merits of Boilers and how to steam them...

 

you put cylinders as no 4 on your list but your currently doing a breath of steam fundraising??

I have to personally say that mainline should be back on the agenda, if your want to build this loco to prove it was a good one and stop all the doubters then its performances on the mainline would do this. And there is more money to be made from this aswell.

As soon as you have a home im sure that the frames will soon spring up. (i would love you to come to the churnet valley, esp as there extending the shed with one offered from leek)
The patriot has done things similar to your plan, except that no4 is boiler. i think were hoping that by building the boiler before, people will look at the project and think its nearly finnished and will give you more to see it finnished off as they can see the finnish line. Were also lucky in that the tender is being worked on seperately (and it already exists) by vale of glamorgan railway and one of our members donated 10,000 to start work on it. We actually have all our wheels for the loco. (one deal needs to be paid for, for the front pony but its all there).

have you got many places on offer to build the loco?

 

Aye Gav, it is, difficult to take back an appeal thats been launched, but as touched on by msr martin and Foxhunter until one bit is finished, seen to be finished, confidence is going to be affected. for..a lot of work has been done towards Hengist, but theres lots of work in progress which isn't tangible Patriot has said whats going on, done it, moved on to the next item, peoplesmoney being seen to be spent on what they gave it nuffsaid. i think its Great that Patriots got the support it has, even if the Clan could eat it for breakfast... there are offers

 

Why this obsession with getting the wheels done? Surely, the complete frame arrangement, including the cylinders, motion brackets and slidebars, should be completed first. I think I am correct in saying that the cylinders have to be positioned to align with the centres of the horns. Both the Patriot and Hengist might look nice with wheels in place prior to cylinders being fitted, but Crewe, Swindon or anywhere else never did it that way.