60008 Dwight W Eisenhower And 60010 Domion Of Canda

60008 Dwight W Eisenhower And 60010 Domion Of Canda

Will They Come Back To Britain

 

No. There is no reason for them to. I would love to see them repatriated too, but they'd just end up as other locos awaiting workshop space, hulks rusting away, or museum pieces gathering dust.
They actually belong to the museums they are in now just as much Mallard belongs to the NRM. Would you want the NRM sell Mallard and ship her over the Atlantic?
Just be thankful both those locos still exist, they could have been scrapped then there would be no way of seeing them at all.

 

Out of interest, how long have these locos spent in North America now, compared to how much time they spent in the UK?

 

No, they won't. They were gifts to the people of Canada and the United States to thank us for our role in the World Wars and are both part of the collection of our respective National Railway Museums.

Dominion of Canada is in need of some repairs to the cladding and a repaint/cleanup, but can still be moved around as the motion is lubricated and functional. Dwight D Eisenhower is inside and well cared for in a good display location.

 

Dominion is booked for cosmetic restoration sometime, but haven't heard anything since late last year.

 

If Wikipedia is to be trusted, Dominion of Canada has been in Montreal since May 1966 or just over 45 years. The CRHA used to have a detailed listing of their collection at Exporail on the website, but i can't seem to find it to confirm that.

 

It had not commenced as of the beginning of May this year when Steve Davies of the NRM visited Exporail and gave the locomotive a once over and offered some suggestions on how to correct some of the cosmetic dents and dings from 45 years of display. I haven't been to Exporail in years, its on my to-do list, but time to get to Montreal in the summer just never seems to be there, and the building she is in wasn't open year round last time i was there.

 

Although i am against these two locomotives coming back (unless the museums decided they no longer wanted them of course) i don't really understand this statement. You are talking about the NRM selling a british locomotive abroad yet the topic is of two british locomotives coming back to britain... two completely different scenarios?

 

I have had privelidge to not only see, but be on the cab of both locomotives, in the Green Bay and Montreal
One thing that struck me about those, to all other locomotives I have foot plated is how original they feel.

They genuinely have been left untouched, not restored, or had the touch of preservation pride..they are as delivered.

There are small things, like the log book, aws equipment etc, scoop and all the cast iron plates (works, tender, water capacity, scoop position plates etc) that have layers of paint on, but other things such as minor dings and dents, bent handrails etc that restored locomotives don't have, and a feel that the paint and preparation was done by someone doing a job, as opposed to someone doing something perfect for a passion...and some features like drivers seat and wooden frames that look 60 odd years old...not modern copies of.. It's also not quite that NRM "spotless" feel to it... The bits look and feel old and worn, then spruced up.

That coal dust round the cab corners is the real thing, cleaned up by someone doing his job to make it presentable but not quite spotless.
I don't think many locomotives (maybe 46235 or the 14xx in Devon, how about 34051?) that can compete with that.
Personally I hope they don't do a full repaint as that would be lost, even our cared for museum locomotives have had years of manicuring to remove those little bits of reality.

 

So therefore longer than they were on these shores.

 

If you look at it this way, its the same scenario. To repatriate those 2 locos means their museums have to sell them and ship them across the Atlantic, which is the same as if the NRM were to sell a loco in their collection and ship it abroad. The A4s across the pond are part of their respective countries' collections, as are the locos of the national collection here.

 

Yes and no, You are crossing your comparisons. The argument being made is not that of repatriating two British locomotives, but of a museum selling off part of its collection to a foreign country. Dominion of Canada and Dwight D Eisenhower are owned by the two museums here. They are not abandoned in a yard as some of the Turkish locos that have been repatriated, or out of place/usefulness/servicability as Pendennis Castle was, or even cared for but unneeded/unwanted as Dunrobin was at Fort Steele. The comparison of the NRM deciding to sell a locomotive overseas is apt, though more fairly applied perhaps to the Shinkansen or Chinese Locomotive (class escapes me). They were donated i assume to the NRM by their respective countries. If the NRM was to dispose of them, you would expect the first offer to go to their home countries, as i would expect would be the case if either Exporail in Montreal or the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay decided to eliminate either locomotive from their collections.

The repatriation argument always gets made by those in the UK press and on this forum when its come up like you have some intrinsic right to expect something which you no longer own to just be given up by its owner because you will care for it better. That's a flawed and overly simplistic argument. While i agree that Dominion of Canada especially needs some care, i doubt that its been painted in 45 years, and as noted, has an air of as donated to it as its never run in preservation and is unlikely to in the foreseeable future. It is stored inside, out of the Canadian weather, and has been since day one, its open to the public and accessible, and there is a group of people who care for her and have been raising funds to do the necessary preservative cosmetic work so she can be on display for another 45 years.

The "Its Ours we should have it here" argument cuts both ways, it seems to me there are an awful lot of people in Greece who use that same logic to demand the marbles from the Acropolis at the British Museum be returned, while there may be a question of the legality of their original acquisition by the British Museum unlike the A4's, the principal argument they are making is the same as that made by many in relation to the A4's on this side of the pond, they are ours, we should be the keepers of them.

If there were not four A4's in the UK, and three of them regular runners, i would definitely see a strong case for efforts to repatriate one of them, but as is, they are owned and part of a collection, and to the best of my knowledge, not for sale or ever considered for deaccession by either museum I see no reason why anyone would get bent out of shape over their presence here flying the flag for the UK overseas. Frankly, its a shame the other Commonwealth A4's didn't make their ways overseas to have had even more of the class preserved.

 

SG-Canada, I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Even better still would be a project to overhaul them and have them to operate in the US and Canada on a British train, I know where's there's two Mark 1's and two Gresleys, and a Mark 2 over stateside just to begin with... There's another Mark 1 BSK there too somewhere

 

Aren't there also a couple of LNER BGs at Universal Studios?

 

Well said. I know we all love to see engines working, but we need to keep a few examples preserved in aspic, too. We want to preserve the experience of a living steam engine for future generations, but they will also want to be able to see truly authentic examples of the craftsmanship of the steam age.

The A4s should be left where they are. As has been pointed out, they are at least kept undercover. There are many beautiful pre-nationalisation coaches and wagons from the LNER and its constituents rotting away in sidings here in Britain. Money would be far better spent getting those running again, rather than duplicating a locomotive class we already have.

Besides, they're flying the flag for Britain "across the pond". It's nice to think that the "Yanks" have an opportunity to see how steam engines were designed in the country that invented them

 

Watch it now, for at least some of us on this side of the pond them be fighting words as we still pledge allegiance to the Queen and have her on our money (and the new $10 bill next year will apparently have The Canadian passing through the Rockies on it!!)

 

Trouble is - the way the £ is going - it will probably be worth £10 and not £5 by then!

 

It's already half way there, according to xe.com, the CAD is worth 1.54 to the £, the days of 2.2=1 are long gone.
The AUD is worth more than the USD, only a few years ago I got 3.3AUD to £1, frankly it amazes me as AU's economy is really struggling and has mass inflation as well, it cost me £3.50 for a can of coke in a sydney newsagent two months ago!
The weak £ is good for my company, but plays havoc with my travel expenses, and international traveling 100 days a year certainly isn't as much fun as it used to be.