Flying Scotsman

Does anyone have any actual updates on the work?

 

It's ongoing. Engine will be ready when it's ready. Steam overhauls have a habit of doing this; not being content with 4472 at work, my own steam roller's restoration is going to the wire!

 

Just adding to what Anthony has said, Ian Riley on another forum says he hesitates to give out progress reports without referring to the NRM. Understandably so, given the annoyance, or at least "frustration" expressed by the NRM, over the premature leaking of the story about the A4 reunion that is still under negotiation.

 

Perhaps the Magazine that leaked the story can redeem themselves by sponsoring the A4 event? They have sponsored gala's and open weekends in the past.

 

Some interesting although sadly negative stuff on Scotsman in the latest Steam Railway. I can be corrected by Anthony or anyone from the NRM if SR have information wrong.

They say that in response to criticism of the NRM by former head Andrew Dow for the loco having a double chimney and apple green. Steve Davies says he's not adverse to fitting a single chimney on 4472 but it won't happen yet (doesn't a single chimney need to be made anyway).

Also featured is an article with Chris Beet about the overhaul and an letter from someone again criticising the NRM but for painting 4472 in wartime black with double chimney and saying he's appalled by what they have done and suggests they leave it in 1928 condition in a correct shade of green.

Again someone has to bring up authenticity and paint they aren't happy with. Just be happy the NRM owns the loco and is working to get her back in steam and on the mainline once again which is what matters. And also be happy that Alan Pegler, Sir William McAlpine/Pete Waterman and Tony Marchington bought her to keep her for the nation rather than her being scrapped.

In terms of an authentic 4472 its difficult anyway unless you have a single chimney and build the loco a second tender without a corridor and fit it in place of the corridor one as she spent a lot of her life with a non corridor from the 1930's (I think) until she was preserved but that would be quite costly to do. I'm happy even if 4472 isn't in authentic condition and I'll have to find a chance when she's back to see her.

 

All these negative idiots idly trolling the NRM and Scotsman from their computer screens and emails and letters, etc, I'd like to see them pop down to the ELR and have a look for themselves how much work has been done by both the NRM and Riley, and how much still remains to do! This overhaul has been a minefield of setbacks and further problems, and the last thing the NRM needs nor wants is to be trolled by people who would never be able to do what's currently being done. Or pay for it.

Just be thankful you have a Scotsman at all! Black looks amazing on her, and she'll be green pretty soon after entering service anyway, so there's no point criticizing the TEMPORARY choice of paint.

Phew! Rant over! Carry on, people XD

 

Seems like an excellent idea to me, how about it Robin Jones or should we NatPres members just announce it as our 'Scoop' and see how he likes it?

 

I have to confess as one who works with a main line loco on a regular basis and pours money, time and effort into the movement (probably more than I can afford!) I get pretty hacked off with armchair critics, who have probably never got their hands dirty, pontificating about the minutiae of loco liveries.....

Foxy

 

Flying Scotsman used to be an A1, for a time she was just another A3, (then an A1 lookalike, then an A3 /A4 hybrid)
The attempts of the NRM to get back as many original A3 bits back on the loco inspite of the cost is praiseworthy as it is their perogative

Since the end of BR steam Flying Scotsman has been THE Flying Scotsman and whatever Chimney/Paint/smoke deflector/tender/boiler/cylinders are carried on those elegant 1930's wheels, to the majority of people she will still be THE Flying Scotsman, people who dont realise there was ever anymore than 1 of them Who dont know or care about A1's or A3's

To them A Flying Scotsman means polished Smokebox straps, Apple green Paint and a big square tender... and of course STEAMS

We owe the survival of the Canvas that we're busy fighting over to Joe Public, without whose affection its doubtful that Macalpine/Marchington//Branson (to whom we also owe thanks) would have been terribly interested.

 

In Andrew Roden's book Flying Scotsman there is an interesting fact. In 1947 Flying Scotsman was converted from an A1 to an A3. It received a new boiler pressed to 220 psi, new cylinders and valves. In 1947 it was also renumbered 103. As an A3 did it ever carry the number 4472?
Do these so called experts want it converting back to an A1?
Me, I am made up that it will shortly be gracing our railway network in whatever livery and whatever style. I am also sick and tired of the whinging brigade, who, at times, do not know what they are talking about.

 

According to the Steam Railway stuff she wasn't 4472 as an A3 but may have to check back through my FS Books to get a good answer.

 

What's an authentic livery? If London Transport maroon is authentic for certain panniers, then Apple Green on Flying Scotsman in A3 condition is authentic, too. In both cases, it's the colour the new owners chose to repaint their locos after they bought them from BR.

Did Alan Pegler buy Flying Scotsman because she was famous? I'd argue it's the other way around: Flying Scotsman is famous because Alan Pegler bought her and managed to keep her running on the mainline network after BR withdrew all their own steam locos. More than perhaps any other loco, Flying Scotsman's continuing history and development in post-BR ownership is at least as important as her earlier history.

Liveries are insteresting and important, but only up to a point. As other posters today have said, I'm just looking forward to the day when she's back in steam and pulling trains. If she's works in black for a few months, then so much the better. Now, if I had any influence at York, I'd recommend they leave her in the current (incresingly grubby) black during the winter, then reveal her in full LNER Apple Green just before sending her off to Barrow Hill in April. But I don't... ;-)

 

[QUOTE=Dan Hill;
Sir Alan Pegler,

When did they Alan Peglar become Sir, I think it was a MBE and well deserved

 

Left Pegler off my list of notables for the very reasons you state. ,
Left Waterman of the list because he appreciated Flying Scotsman more for (nearly) being an A3 Pacific.
Well done the both

 

Steam Railway being negative about "Flying Scotsman" - well what a surprise! When they know the difference between frame and hornblock, between wheel and tyre etc. the magazine might just qualify as something whose primary function is not to be hung from a nail in the small hut at the bottom of the garden.
Alan Pegler wanted to preserve the engine as a typical A3 of the 1930s and that is what he achieved and the custodians of the locomotive that followed on from that kept faith with that aim. It could have a corridor tender, a non-corridor or a GN type but it has the first type, not only historically important but very useful when engaged in working trains. If anyone wishes to build replicas of the other designs I am sure the NRM would not object to receiving them.
At present it has a double Kylchap installation, very useful for a working locomotive on todays railways (I would make all locomotive operators fit an advanced high output exhaust system if they wished to cotinue to have mainline access) Gresley would have fitted all the non-streamlined pacifics if circumstances had allowed.
Sad thing about the overhaul taking place is not the time it is taking, neither is it the cost, it is rather that it is impossible to be informed of the ups and downs of the process and so learn lessons for the future without information given in good faith being mis-quoted and abused by the journalists at SR and others who really need to find something else to do. Long distance underwater swimming comes to mind - no snorkel.

 

Whilst the chap in the letters section of SR has clearly gone off the deep end, I feel Mr. Dow made a reasonable point. Don't all jump on me at once, let me finish!

His main concern wasn't that the locomotive known as Flying Scotsman is in an 'unauthentic' (or particularly unauthentic, as opposed to 'looking right') guise, but that it was the NRM that was presenting it as such. I agree with him, to an extent. As a museum, to inform and educate the public about the past, the NRM has a duty to present its artefacts in as authentic a way as is sensibly possible, to a much greater extent than a private owner or railway. I'll come back to defining authentic in a minute. Now, I'm not about to say that we need to turn 4472 back into an A1 or anything that daft - the pre-preservation fabric of the locomotive must be upheld, within reason - but I do agree with Mr. Dow that double chimney & smoke deflectors and apple green is a step too far away from the museum's duty as I have defined it. Arguments that it is merely representing its previous 21st century look don't work for me - the museum should be trying to show it in its pre-preservation guise.

Now, to define authentic. Obviously, without stuffing and mounting a locomotive, keeping it in absolutely original condition is impossible, even silly. A compromise needs to be reached - bits need replaced, parts added for modern operations - TPWS, air braking - but that doesn't mean that a locomotive can't be kept looking, basically, to all but the most fastidious of enthusiast eyes, 'right'. Even with their modern changes, the locomotives we see plying their trade on the mainline and on heritage railways, generally look right. Flying Scotsman, in apple green with smoke deflectors, doesn't. To me, the A3 4472 with single chimney, corridor tender, in apple green, looks right, or authentic - even though if you want to get really silly you can say it never ran like that in LNER days (others did though).

But that's just my opinion.

Let me finish by saying - well done to the NRM. Well done to Pridham's. Well done to Riley's. Well done to everyone involved, I am incalculably pleased to see the locomotive so close to returning to steam, and from what I can see it will be better than ever from an operational perspective. Whilst not involved in loco maintenance myself, I have read and spoken with people about it to the extent that I can appreciate to a tiny extent the incredible amount of work involved. I look forward to seeing it, in any colour with or without its deflectors, soon.

 

We will see it as the public recognise it, and in its most efficient form, acceptable for operation on the national network.

For my tastes its Brunswick Green with all the trimmings - but the public know it as 4472 - in apple green. Its been that way for the better part of fifty years now, and approval bodies have tried it with and without deflectors and for safety there's only one option while she has a double chimney.

So - Andrew and others - you want an original A1 to define purity - that'll be about £3m and twenty years or so - or be pleased with what is coming back. I will!

Let's be honest - they could have painted it red and called that preservation!

 

I hope that I don't constitute one of your 'others'. Moreover, I don't think that an original A1 is what Andrew Dow was asking for - the beef is with the chimney and deflectors, very obvious and defining parts of the locos appearance, the rest is ok.

How much would it be, seriously, for a single chimney smoke box, chimney and blastpipe (if we took the interchangeable parts of the double chimney 'box?) Nothing to stop the NRM launching a small appeal, perhaps in conjunction with a magazine, for such a smokebox to be made ready for fitting at an intermediate overhaul.

 

I don't see how the "brand" of an engine matters quite so much in joe public recognising it. I mean we don't make it hard do we? We put the name on the side for them to read!

As for the authenticity argument, as a young enthusiast I would argue that rather than "preserving" a loco, surely it is now merely continuing its life and so the alterations over the years are merely another part of its story? FS has smoke deflectors because they deflect smoke and a double chimney to improve the draft, two things that have been added because they work and make the engine better. No doubt if Hitler had waited around a bit Gresley would have added/experimented with these things himself? Still it doesn't make much sense that the NRM refuses to paint it in the colour that it would look most suitable in based on the FS "brand" argument and then for its big public relaunch paint it war black?